| Author |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:27 pm
Post subject: a "group question" |
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You can either say "the family is" or "the family are"
according to how you consider the familiy: as a group of
people or as individual members of the group.
But how about : a group of men? is this "a group of men are
sitting" or is it "a group of men is sitting "according to
the situation above (family)?
And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..." as
the sentence with "or" demands that you take the latest noun
in consideration, but how about
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher are"?
I should be happy to hear an answer to the question soon.
:-)
--
ahw
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R J Valentine
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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On Sun, 6 Nov 2005 13:16:04 +0100 Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
} the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
}
}> Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> spake thusly:
}>
}> > The topic is "agreement."
}>
}> See, that's an example which makes it extraordinarily difficult for
}> me to accept the convention of always putting punctuation inside
}> quotes. It implies that the OP should search for some topic named
}> "agreement.".
}
} In your world, yes. Not in mine.
There it implies that the OP should search for some topic called
"agreement," does it?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@theWorld.com> |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:54 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote:
| Quote: | You can either say "the family is" or "the family are"
according to how you consider the familiy: as a group of
people or as individual members of the group.
But how about : a group of men? is this "a group of men are
sitting" or is it "a group of men is sitting "according to
the situation above (family)?
And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..." as
the sentence with "or" demands that you take the latest noun
in consideration, but how about
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher are"?
|
The topic is "agreement." There's a pretty good discussion here,
although it's scatted over various screens:
Agreement: Subject-verb, Pronouns. Singular/plurals.(Use "Next" & links)
http://www.bartleby.com/68/40/240.html
--
Best wishes -- Donna Richoux
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> spake thusly:
| Quote: | Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote:
You can either say "the family is" or "the family are"
according to how you consider the familiy: as a group of
people or as individual members of the group.
But how about : a group of men? is this "a group of men are
sitting" or is it "a group of men is sitting "according to
the situation above (family)?
And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..." as
the sentence with "or" demands that you take the latest noun
in consideration, but how about
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher are"?
The topic is "agreement."
|
See, that's an example which makes it extraordinarily difficult for
me to accept the convention of always putting punctuation inside
quotes. It implies that the OP should search for some topic named
"agreement.".
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> spake thusly:
The topic is "agreement."
See, that's an example which makes it extraordinarily difficult for
me to accept the convention of always putting punctuation inside
quotes. It implies that the OP should search for some topic named
"agreement.".
|
In your world, yes. Not in mine.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:23 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1h5lvrd.7j51mkk5s5auN%trio@euronet.nl...
| Quote: | the children and the teacher -- is this "the children
and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher
are"?
The topic is "agreement." There's a pretty good discussion
here,
although it's scatted over various screens:
Agreement: Subject-verb, Pronouns. Singular/plurals.(Use
"Next" & links)
http://www.bartleby.com/68/40/240.html
|
I thank you for the reference, but I should rather have the
answer instead of reading long articles which do not refer
to the above question but only refer to the question in
general terms as I am looking especially for the very
sentences mentioned above.
I'm afraid that the links do not give the accurate answer I
am looking for.
--
Arne H.Wilstrup |
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Weatherlawyer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:38 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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Arne H. Wilstrup wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm afraid that the links do not give the accurate answer I am looking for.
Still? |
I imagine the family "were" by now, rendering the clause irrelevant. |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:51 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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"Weatherlawyer" <Weatherlawyer@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelse
news:1131280723.014652.248860@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Arne H. Wilstrup wrote:
I'm afraid that the links do not give the accurate answer
I am looking for.
Still?
I imagine the family "were" by now, rendering the clause
irrelevant.
|
Sorry if my question was not understandable. I'll try again
in another way.
Would you prefer "The family is..." or "the family are..."?`
And will you prefer "the group of men is sitting..." or "the
group of men are sitting..."
Next: what is correct here: "The children or the teacher
is...." or "The children and the teacher are..."
AND
"The children AND the teacher are..." or "The children AND
the teacher is..."
And why?
Hope that the question is understandable so far - and I
should very much like to get an answere from somebody who is
a native speaker -that's all I ask for. :-)
--
Arne H.Wilstrup |
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Lars Eighner
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:57 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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In our last episode,
<436df5e2$0$84039$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk>,
the lovely and talented Arne H. Wilstrup
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | I thank you for the reference, but I should rather have the
answer instead of reading long articles which do not refer
to the above question but only refer to the question in
general terms as I am looking especially for the very
sentences mentioned above.
I'm afraid that the links do not give the accurate answer I
am looking for.
|
Your questions:
| Quote: | But how about : a group of men? is this "a group of men are
sitting" or is it "a group of men is sitting "according to
the situation above (family)?
|
This has no "the accurate answer." There are too many factors
of dialect, context, and psychology. Prescriptivists will almost
always be happy if you follow the number of their grammatical
subject, which is singular. Most native speakers will not
notice anything odd in either sentence. Some people who are
pleased by "a group of men is waiting in your office" will
feel uneasy with "a group of men was arguing in the street."
| Quote: | the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher are"?
|
Any time subjects are joined by "and," you are on safe ground
to consider them plural.
--
Lars Eighner usenet@larseighner.com http://www.larseighner.com/
"Where is human nature so weak as in a bookstore!" --Henry Ward Beecher |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:24 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 12:06:36 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> spake thusly:
Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote:
You can either say "the family is" or "the family are"
according to how you consider the familiy: as a group of
people or as individual members of the group.
But how about : a group of men? is this "a group of men are
sitting" or is it "a group of men is sitting "according to
the situation above (family)?
And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..." as
the sentence with "or" demands that you take the latest noun
in consideration, but how about
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher are"?
The topic is "agreement."
See, that's an example which makes it extraordinarily difficult for
me to accept the convention of always putting punctuation inside
quotes. It implies that the OP should search for some topic named
"agreement.".
|
Google wouldn't care, though I usually put search terms inside <>. Google
doesn't care about those either. I can then write <big "fat cat">, for example.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Jeffrey Turner
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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Arne H. Wilstrup wrote:
| Quote: | You can either say "the family is" or "the family are"
according to how you consider the familiy: as a group of
people or as individual members of the group.
But how about : a group of men? is this "a group of men are
sitting" or is it "a group of men is sitting "according to
the situation above (family)?
|
The situation is exactly analogous, if you're interested in the
"groupness" of the men, say "is," if you're focused on the
individuals in the group, say "are."
| Quote: | And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..." as
the sentence with "or" demands that you take the latest noun
in consideration, but how about
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher are"?
|
The children and teacher _are_ sitting, that's always a group.
| Quote: | I should be happy to hear an answer to the question soon.
|
Judging by the previous responses, I'm not sure you were
justified in anticipating happiness.
--Jeff
--
When people are fanatically dedicated
to political or religious faiths or any
other kind of dogmas or goals, it's
always because these dogmas or goals
are in doubt. -Robert T. Pirsig |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:32 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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On Sun, 6 Nov 2005 13:51:37 +0100, "Arne H. Wilstrup"
<detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Weatherlawyer" <Weatherlawyer@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelse
news:1131280723.014652.248860@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Arne H. Wilstrup wrote:
I'm afraid that the links do not give the accurate answer
I am looking for.
Still?
I imagine the family "were" by now, rendering the clause
irrelevant.
Sorry if my question was not understandable. I'll try again
in another way.
Would you prefer "The family is..." or "the family are..."?`
|
The family is .... (either is possible)
| Quote: |
And will you prefer "the group of men is sitting..." or "the
group of men are sitting..."
|
The group of men is sitting ... (either is possible)
| Quote: | Next: what is correct here: "The children or the teacher
is...." or "The children and the teacher are..."
|
The former needs more context to tell us whether it is likely or not. As it
stands it appears unlikely to be correct English
| Quote: | AND
"The children AND the teacher are..." or "The children AND
the teacher is..."
|
The children and the teacher are ....
That's not a question I can answer
| Quote: |
Hope that the question is understandable so far - and I
should very much like to get an answere from somebody who is
a native speaker -that's all I ask for. 
|
I am; (BrE). Those are my opinions of what sounds idiomatic to me.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:33 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote:
| Quote: | "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1h5lvrd.7j51mkk5s5auN%trio@euronet.nl...
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children
and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher
are"?
The topic is "agreement." There's a pretty good discussion
here,
although it's scatted over various screens:
Agreement: Subject-verb, Pronouns. Singular/plurals.(Use
"Next" & links)
http://www.bartleby.com/68/40/240.html
I thank you for the reference, but I should rather have the
answer instead of reading long articles which do not refer
to the above question but only refer to the question in
general terms as I am looking especially for the very
sentences mentioned above.
I'm afraid that the links do not give the accurate answer I
am looking for.
|
Thanks for letting me know. This one is more to the point:
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/intro_d.shtml#Groupnounssingularorplura
lcompanyisvcompanyare
--
Best wishes - Donna Richoux |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:08 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
|
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"Lars Eighner" <usenet@larseighner.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:slrndmrvdo.2a43.usenet@goodwill.io.com...
| Quote: |
This has no "the accurate answer." There are too many
factors
of dialect, context, and psychology. Prescriptivists will
almost
always be happy if you follow the number of their
grammatical
subject, which is singular. Most native speakers will not
notice anything odd in either sentence. Some people who
are
pleased by "a group of men is waiting in your office" will
feel uneasy with "a group of men was arguing in the
street."
|
Thank you!
| Quote: |
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher
are"?
Any time subjects are joined by "and," you are on safe
ground
to consider them plural.
|
Thank you again!
--
Arne H.Wilstrup |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:19 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:11ms1akk95jp015@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: |
The situation is exactly analogous, if you're interested
in the
"groupness" of the men, say "is," if you're focused on the
individuals in the group, say "are."
|
This is my opinion, too - but my university professor does
not agree. I argued if you can say "family is" or "familly
are" it ought to be possible to say "a group of men is
sitting" or " a group of men are sitting" - but she said
no - because it is a totally different situation.
| Quote: |
And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..."
as the sentence with "or" demands that you take the
latest noun in consideration, but how about
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher
are"?
The children and teacher _are_ sitting, that's always a
group.
|
Well, here is again a disagreement, as my professor says
that when you have a sentence divided by "or" it is the
latter noun you are referring to -i.e. the children or the
teacher is... should be correctly.
| Quote: |
I should be happy to hear an answer to the question soon.
Judging by the previous responses, I'm not sure you were
justified in anticipating happiness.
|
:-)
Thank you anyway.
And for the record: I am not asking the questions here just
to "win" a debate with my English professor (as a matter of
fact, we shall not see her anymore as she has left the
university), but just to get a little more knowledge of the
English grammar, which I find very difficult to understand
sometimes. :-)
--
Arne H.Wilstrup |
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