| Author |
Message |
Peter Willer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:35 pm
Post subject: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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Hi,
a friend told me that in earlier times, the English Language had the
Letter "ß", in Germany called "sz". I've googled around but haven't
found further information. Is here someone, who knows more about this?
I hope I've chosen the subject well, I only guess that the German
Language is the only one, which contain the letter "sz".
Thanks in advance & greetings from Germany,
Peter |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:57 pm
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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Peter Willer wrote:
| Quote: | Hi,
a friend told me that in earlier times, the English Language had the
Letter "ß", in Germany called "sz". I've googled around but haven't
found further information. Is here someone, who knows more about this?
I hope I've chosen the subject well, I only guess that the German
Language is the only one, which contain the letter "sz".
|
Earlier in English (and in other languages too) there were two forms of
the letter "s". One looked a bit like "f" without the crossbar and the
otehr looked like the modern "s". When you had double "s" it was often
written like "fs" (without the crossbar on the "f" , of course). For
frequently occurring letter combinations such as "ss", "ti", "fi"
etc.printers often used combined letters called ligatures because it
saved time (and space) while typesetting with loose type. This meant
that a "ss" often looked like the German letter "ß". This ligature was
retained in German, becoming a semi-independent letter itself, while it
disappeared in other languages - this was probably aided by the fact
that in the old gothic script (Fraktur) many letter pairs were
represented by such ligatures.
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. Incidentally
the German umlauted letters originated from such ligatures too.
Hope that helps a bit.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Peter Willer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 pm
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
| Quote: | Peter Willer wrote:
Hi,
a friend told me that in earlier times, the English Language had the
Letter "ß", in Germany called "sz". I've googled around but haven't
found further information. Is here someone, who knows more about this?
I hope I've chosen the subject well, I only guess that the German
Language is the only one, which contain the letter "sz".
Earlier in English (and in other languages too) there were two forms of
the letter "s". One looked a bit like "f" without the crossbar and the
otehr looked like the modern "s". When you had double "s" it was often
written like "fs" (without the crossbar on the "f" , of course). For
frequently occurring letter combinations such as "ss", "ti", "fi"
etc.printers often used combined letters called ligatures because it
saved time (and space) while typesetting with loose type. This meant
that a "ss" often looked like the German letter "ß". This ligature was
retained in German, becoming a semi-independent letter itself, while it
disappeared in other languages - this was probably aided by the fact
that in the old gothic script (Fraktur) many letter pairs were
represented by such ligatures.
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. Incidentally
the German umlauted letters originated from such ligatures too.
Hope that helps a bit.
|
Yes, it helps a lot!
Thank you,
Peter |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:21 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
| Quote: |
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
ligatures too.
|
I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).
--
John Briggs |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
| Quote: | Peter Willer wrote:
Hi,
a friend told me that in earlier times, the English Language had the
Letter "ß", in Germany called "sz". I've googled around but haven't
found further information. Is here someone, who knows more about
this? I hope I've chosen the subject well, I only guess that the
German
Language is the only one, which contain the letter "sz".
Earlier in English (and in other languages too) there were two forms
of the letter "s". One looked a bit like "f" without the crossbar and
the otehr looked like the modern "s". When you had double "s" it was
often written like "fs" (without the crossbar on the "f" , of
course).
|
I once read a very clever piece in which every 's' sound had been turned
into f and which was hilarious to read. This was long before word
processors made such a thing relatively easy. In fact nowadays with a
search and replace you can turn any old EULA into something from the
18th century. An automatic translation to and back from any old language
beforehand adds to the fun. |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:24 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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At 21:34:48 on Sat, 8 Oct 2005, John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr>
wrote in <43484533$0$17214$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>:
| Quote: | I once read a very clever piece in which every 's' sound had been turned
into f and which was hilarious to read.
|
There was an episode of the excellent "The Vicar of Dibley" where Alice,
the intellectually-challenged girl-verger, had to read from an antique
bible whose Ss looked like Fs, and Geraldine interrupted her just before
she got to the word "succour".
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:58 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
ligatures too.
I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).
|
I don't know anything about Dutch, but I have seen old inscriptions and
documents in German where instead of the modern umlaut (i.e. 2 dots over
the letter) there is a small "e" as a sort of superscript over the letter.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:21:20 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
ligatures too.
I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).
|
Is it ballocks. The letter 'y' in standard Dutch is called 'griekse
ypsilon' (nice example of recursion there) and is used only in
borrowed words, so you would need to come up with an explanation for
umlauting a vowel that doesn't exist in the language for that to work.
So far as I can tell, 'y' is only used with its consonantal value in
Dutch (with the caveats regarding archaic spelling stated below).
In Dutch handwriting, 'ij' often closely resembles 'y' with a
diaeresis simply because that is an easy way to write it in cursive
script, but it is rarely, if ever, so in print (I have seen non-dotted
'y' in archaic formations of Dutch words, such as names of places and
people, but that is now a non-standard substitution for 'ij').
The 'Van Dale Groot woordenboek der Nederlandse taal' has this to say
on the subject:
het is een misverstand de ‘y’ gelijk te stellen met de ‘ij’, zoals in
alfabetische rangschikkingen vaak gebeurt (en in alfabetische
naamlijsten op praktische gronden misschien te rechtvaardigen is): de
‘ij’ behoort beschouwd te worden als ‘i’ + ‘j’; de ‘y’ is de Griekse
vocaal u
Rough translation:
it is a misunderstanding that 'y' can be placed with 'ij', as often
happens in alphabetical ordering (and may be reasonable on practical
grounds in alphabetical lists): 'ij' is to be considered as 'i + j',
'y' is the Greek vowel [ypsilon]
Since there is a standard for Dutch, prescribed by the Nederlandse
Taalunie, and Van Dale's publications faithfully follow that standard,
such comments can be taken as being authoritative in a manner not
available to claims to authority regarding English.
Perhaps you are thinking of Afrikaans, where the 'ij' letter (composed
of two glyphs, but still a single letter) is frequently replaced with
'y' with or without a diaeresis? Afrikaans is close to Dutch, but
differs in many respects, including orthography.
Giles |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:32 pm
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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Molly Mockford wrote:
| Quote: | At 21:34:48 on Sat, 8 Oct 2005, John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr
wrote in <43484533$0$17214$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>:
I once read a very clever piece in which every 's' sound had been
turned into f and which was hilarious to read.
There was an episode of the excellent "The Vicar of Dibley" where
Alice, the intellectually-challenged girl-verger, had to read from an
antique bible whose Ss looked like Fs, and Geraldine interrupted her
just before she got to the word "succour".
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:37 pm
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:58:35 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan
<einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs wrote:
Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
ligatures too.
I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).
I don't know anything about Dutch, but I have seen old inscriptions and
documents in German where instead of the modern umlaut (i.e. 2 dots over
the letter) there is a small "e" as a sort of superscript over the letter.
|
When we last stayed in Gemany it took us a while to realise that
"Pruem" as described in the English version of the brochure was
actually "Prüm".
--
Phil C. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:25 pm
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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Giles Todd wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:21:20 GMT, "John Briggs"
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
ligatures too.
I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).
Is it ballocks. The letter 'y' in standard Dutch is called 'griekse
ypsilon' (nice example of recursion there) and is used only in
borrowed words, so you would need to come up with an explanation for
umlauting a vowel that doesn't exist in the language for that to work.
So far as I can tell, 'y' is only used with its consonantal value in
Dutch (with the caveats regarding archaic spelling stated below).
|
OK - in that case, explain "ij".
--
John Briggs |
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Ivan
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | Giles Todd wrote:
On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:21:20 GMT, "John Briggs"
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
ligatures too.
I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).
Is it ballocks. The letter 'y' in standard Dutch is called 'griekse
ypsilon' (nice example of recursion there) and is used only in
borrowed words, so you would need to come up with an explanation for
umlauting a vowel that doesn't exist in the language for that to work.
So far as I can tell, 'y' is only used with its consonantal value in
Dutch (with the caveats regarding archaic spelling stated below).
OK - in that case, explain "ij".
--
John Briggs
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It's a newspaper - the Independent Journal (Marin County, CA)
I thought this was a group about English. |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:26 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:25:32 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | OK - in that case, explain "ij".
|
naam van de lettercombinatie bestaande uit de tekens i en j, gebruikt
om, in een aantal woorden, de tweeklank ei weer te geven:
deze ij wordt vaak, ter onderscheiding van de ei, de lange ij
genoemd
Graag gedaan en met vriendelijke groeten.
Giles |
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Ben Shimmin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:37 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu>:
| Quote: | On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:25:32 GMT, "John Briggs"
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
OK - in that case, explain "ij".
naam van de lettercombinatie bestaande uit de tekens i en j, gebruikt
om, in een aantal woorden, de tweeklank ei weer te geven:
deze ij wordt vaak, ter onderscheiding van de ei, de lange ij
genoemd
Graag gedaan en met vriendelijke groeten.
|
I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the word
`tweeklank' sounds marvellous.
b.
--
Enjoy responsibly. <URL:http://bas.me.uk/> |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: German Letter in the English Language!? |
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On 9 Oct 2005 12:33:03 -0700, "Ivan" <vorotyntsev@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I thought this was a group about English.
|
It is apparently also a newsgroup for English speakers to make
incorrect assertions about languages with which they are unfamiliar.
Why anyone would want to do this is another question entirely. I
can't even pretend to offer an answer.
Giles |
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