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meeso
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:55 am
Post subject: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Hello to everyone,
I'd really appreicate it if someone could tell me what is the one
english word to describe the agricultural land owned by the church, and
surrounding it, in medieval Europe. However, I do not mean the
"churchyard", for the other land I am talking about was used for
agriculture and was considerably vast.
Most appreciatively,
--
Maysara Omar
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:46 am
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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On 30 Sep 2005, meeso wrote
| Quote: | Hello to everyone,
I'd really appreicate it if someone could tell me what is the one
english word to describe the agricultural land owned by the
church, and surrounding it, in medieval Europe. However, I do not
mean the "churchyard", for the other land I am talking about was
used for agriculture and was considerably vast.
|
I'm not sure about Europe in general, but in England the local church
often owned the local "manor" -- this was, however, more of a legal
entity than a physical one.
However, the core lands of a manor were known as the "demesne" or
"demesne lands". (In English, "demesne" is pronounced as "di-mayne",
with stress on the second syllable.)
If you are seeking the answer to a test question, I suspect that they
are looking for "demesne".
(Usual usenet qualifications: I could be entirely wrong...)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm not sure about Europe in general, but in England the local church
often owned the local "manor" -- this was, however, more of a legal
entity than a physical one.
|
Not often at all - unless the "local church" was a monastery, in which case
the monastery may have been endowed (was "endowment" the desired term?) with
both the manor and the parish church (more precisely the benefice - even
more precisely the rectory), so that the monastic church (or part thereof)
became the parish church. Where the monastery had been endowed with a
distant manor, it could well own both manor and church (if provoked, I may
explain "advowson"  )
| Quote: | However, the core lands of a manor were known as the "demesne" or
"demesne lands". (In English, "demesne" is pronounced as "di-mayne",
with stress on the second syllable.)
|
I pronounce it "demean", but what do I know?
--
John Briggs
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mUs1Ka
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:13 am
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: |
However, the core lands of a manor were known as the "demesne" or
"demesne lands". (In English, "demesne" is pronounced as "di-mayne",
with stress on the second syllable.)
Or "di-meen" |
--
Ray. |
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meeso
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | ... I suspect that they are looking for "demesne".
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And I suspect, if THEY should exist, that they are a very boring people
with such a potent test!
| Quote: | (Usual usenet qualifications:
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I understand.
Cheers,
--
Maysara Omar |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:04 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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On 01 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
I'm not sure about Europe in general, but in England the local
church often owned the local "manor" -- this was, however, more
of a legal entity than a physical one.
Not often at all - unless the "local church" was a monastery,
|
Quite right; muddled posting on my part. (What I was trying to say
was that the local church -- the advowson -- was often owned in common
with the local manor. One should never try and post these things after
returning from the pub; apologies.)
| Quote: | which case the monastery may have been endowed (was "endowment"
the desired term?) with both the manor and the parish church (more
precisely the benefice - even more precisely the rectory), so that
the monastic church (or part thereof) became the parish church.
Where the monastery had been endowed with a distant manor, it
could well own both manor and church (if provoked, I may explain
"advowson" )
However, the core lands of a manor were known as the "demesne" or
"demesne lands". (In English, "demesne" is pronounced as
"di-mayne", with stress on the second syllable.)
I pronounce it "demean", but what do I know?
|
I've not heard that pronunciation for some time now, but I work in
topographical rather than legal or ecclesiastical history; it may be
more common in those circles. (For what it's worth, Collins has both,
with no preference shown other than listing the "mayne" pronunciation
first.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:16 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 08:04:49 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| On 01 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
| > Not often at all - unless the "local church" was a monastery,
|
| Quite right; muddled posting on my part. (What I was trying to say
| was that the local church -- the advowson -- was often owned in common
| with the local manor.
However *some* local Churches were run and staffed by one of the many
monasteries. As always the real situation was complex and changeable :-(
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
The London suicide bombers killed innocent commuters.
Animal rights terrorists and activists kill innocent patients. |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:46 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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On 01 Oct 2005, Dave Fawthrop wrote
| Quote: | On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 08:04:49 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 01 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
Not often at all - unless the "local church" was a monastery,
Quite right; muddled posting on my part. (What I was trying to
say was that the local church -- the advowson -- was often owned
in common with the local manor.
However *some* local Churches were run and staffed by one of the
many monasteries. As always the real situation was complex and
changeable 
|
Absolutely; that's why I used "often" (rather than risking the
implication that it was the norm).
Mind you, the day-to-day running and staffing of churches -- at least
until the Benefices Act (1820s, I think) began to require residency --
seems to me to be fairly separate from the ownership of the advowson.
As an aside, it surprised me that some of the legal quirks survived
until quite recently. This is a list of significant legal changes to
advowsons, patronage and benefices which I compiled a few years ago:
1868 All church rates made voluntary; no longer enforceable in court
1898 All transfers of patronage to be registered at the diocese
1921 Patronage held by the parishioners now deemed to be held by the
P.C.C.
1923 After two vacancies, patronage cannot be sold separately from the
land
1923 Clergy who own patronage banned from presenting themselves
1930 Notice of a transfer of patronage must be given prior to the
transfer
1932 Establishment of Diocesan Boards of Patronage
1933 Authorisation of compulsory purchase of patronage by the P.C.C.
(time-limited)
1936 Tithe Act made tithes no longer payable to any parish priest
1968 Ban on sale of advowsons which are separated from land or manorial
title
1968 Authority for suspension of right of presentation for 5-year
renewable periods
1968 Perpetural Curacies abolished and made vicarages
1986 Advowsons appendant to land or manorial title severed
1986 Advowsons no longer registered with land title
1986 If benefice left vacant for nine months, patronage for that turn
passes to the Archbishopo
1986 Registered patron must consult and obtain approval of the P.C.C.
prior to presenting or transferring
1986 All legal interest of the patron in the parsonage house removed
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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