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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:10 am
Post subject: Inquisition? |
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Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Maria Conlon
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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Murray Arnow wrote:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
It beats me how any of this relates to language usage, unless you are
referring to a new meaning for Inquisition. This is the first time I
heard "Inquisition" used to describe any of the above.
Just to make things clear, you have used either an explicit comparison
or implied comparison to some undefined time. What is that time? It
would be nice if these statements were based on real data rather than
a perception of reality. Unless this also relates to a change in the
meaning of "evidence"--another question of usage.
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Jeez, Murray -- I was going to suggest to Don/"don" that he get the heck
out of Oregon if it's like that. But I'll go along with your remarks, on
second thought.
Maria Conlon |
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Murray Arnow
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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don groves <dgroves@domain.net (see sig for domain)> wrote:
| Quote: | Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
|
It beats me how any of this relates to language usage, unless you are
referring to a new meaning for Inquisition. This is the first time I
heard "Inquisition" used to describe any of the above.
Just to make things clear, you have used either an explicit comparison
or implied comparison to some undefined time. What is that time? It
would be nice if these statements were based on real data rather than a
perception of reality. Unless this also relates to a change in the
meaning of "evidence"--another question of usage. |
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Adrian Bailey
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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"Maria Conlon" <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:387r95F5m21nmU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Murray Arnow wrote:
don groves wrote:
Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
It beats me how any of this relates to language usage, unless you are
referring to a new meaning for Inquisition. This is the first time I
heard "Inquisition" used to describe any of the above.
Just to make things clear, you have used either an explicit comparison
or implied comparison to some undefined time. What is that time? It
would be nice if these statements were based on real data rather than
a perception of reality. Unless this also relates to a change in the
meaning of "evidence"--another question of usage.
Jeez, Murray -- I was going to suggest to Don/"don" that he get the heck
out of Oregon if it's like that. But I'll go along with your remarks, on
second thought.
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http://scott.hayes.org/thoughts/niemoller.html
Adrian |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net (see sig for domain)> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c8846b3924032a1989881@news.web-ster.com...
| Quote: | Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
|
If future historians adopted this usage it would
be sadly imprecise. The Holy Inquisition of the Catholic
church was a specific institution with a recognized
ideology, staff, programme etc. and its activities can
be described in a fairly complete and factual way. The
phenomena listed here (inc. police violence, Biblical literalism
etc.) lack both selection criteria and any common principle
of organization. The phenomenon was differently named
Zeitgeist by other sorts of historian viz. "the spirit of the
times."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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In alt.usage.english, don groves wrote:
| Quote: | Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
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Indeed.
--
Mickwick |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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Adrian Bailey wrote:
| Quote: | "Maria Conlon" <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:387r95F5m21nmU1@individual.net...
Murray Arnow wrote:
don groves wrote:
Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
It beats me how any of this relates to language usage, unless you
are referring to a new meaning for Inquisition. This is the first
time I heard "Inquisition" used to describe any of the above.
Just to make things clear, you have used either an explicit
comparison or implied comparison to some undefined time. What is
that time? It would be nice if these statements were based on real
data rather than a perception of reality. Unless this also relates
to a change in the meaning of "evidence"--another question of usage.
Jeez, Murray -- I was going to suggest to Don/"don" that he get the
heck out of Oregon if it's like that. But I'll go along with your
remarks, on second thought.
http://scott.hayes.org/thoughts/niemoller.html
Adrian
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Another old favourite. Which, as usual, overlooks the fact that what is
in the Congressional Record is not what Niemoller may or may not have
said but a version of what a Congress critter *thought* he might have
said. Attempts to find a reliable version in print of any such statement
by Niemoller do not meet with success. Nor can anyone point to a
reliable account of any speech in which produced anything like what is
commonly quoted as his. He certainly seems to have said *something* on
the subject of what happens when you try to remain uninvolved when the
early victims have no connection with you, but it's damned hard to find
out exactly what it was. I think the most likely explanation is that he
made comments along those lines on a number of occasions, that each
speech was different from the others - in terms of sequence, of which
groups were included and which omitted and so on - and the whole thing
is now understandably conflated to try to create a meaningful statement
of an important principle. But it founders when we try to attribute a
definitive statement to Niemoller himself.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Carsten Kruse
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | said. Attempts to find a reliable version in print of any such statement
by Niemoller do not meet with success. Nor can anyone point to a
reliable account of any speech in which produced anything like what is
commonly quoted as his. He certainly seems to have said *something* on
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First: It's either Niemoeller or -- much better -- Niemöller. ;-)
I hope this link may help you:
http://hsozkult.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/forum/type=anfragen&count=1&recno=1&sort=datum&order=down&id=8&segment_ignore=128&re=9
In case the link doesn't work simple paste the parts together... cause
the reader tore it apart. (I hope it won't, though ;-)
--
Bye/7, Carsten http://fallschirmspringen-in-gera.de
....Money is a sixth sense without which you cannot make use of the other
five. |
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Carsten Kruse
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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I wrote:
| Quote: | In case the link doesn't work simple paste the parts together... cause
Grrr, I wanted to type "simply" |
BTW: The link works. "40tude dialogue" seems to be a good candidate for
the 2005 compilation of usenet newsreaders used in aue =;-)
--
Bye/7, Carsten http://fallschirmspringen-in-gera.de
....You cannot propel yourself forward by patting yourself on the back! |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:54 am
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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Carsten Kruse wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean wrote:
said. Attempts to find a reliable version in print of any such
statement by Niemoller do not meet with success. Nor can anyone
point to a reliable account of any speech in which produced anything
like what is commonly quoted as his. He certainly seems to have said
*something* on
First: It's either Niemoeller or -- much better -- Niemöller. 
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I'm afraid I don't make a big thing of scratching about for the
appropriate Alt-combinations for accent marks when I'm on Usenet and my
keyboard doesn't do them automatically.
I don't actually need any help. I said what I wanted to say. Your link
says that Niemoller's widow says he said what people think he said. She
doesn't point to any written version. She claims it was said in answer
to a student's question. She doesn't say who memorised the reply and
subsequently wrote it down or who, if anyone, verified it was an
accurate reflection. And she dates it rather later than most people
imagine it to have been uttered.
Her quote is interesting in one respect - it provides a counterbalance
to the earlier link where the guy alleges that what is in the
Congressional record is an exact version of what Niemoller said.
The proof of the pudding is, I think, that it is virtually impossible to
find authoritative statements of what the good Pastor said which agree
in every particular, except when it is clear that one authority has
lifted the info from the other authority.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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In article <zcFTd.1479$MJ.7971@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>, Don
Phillipson at d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com hath writ:
| Quote: | "don groves" <dgroves@domain.net (see sig for domain)> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c8846b3924032a1989881@news.web-ster.com...
Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
If future historians adopted this usage it would
be sadly imprecise. The Holy Inquisition of the Catholic
church was a specific institution with a recognized
ideology, staff, programme etc. and its activities can
be described in a fairly complete and factual way. The
phenomena listed here (inc. police violence, Biblical literalism
etc.) lack both selection criteria and any common principle
of organization. The phenomenon was differently named
Zeitgeist by other sorts of historian viz. "the spirit of the
times."
|
But there are two specific US institutions now moving in the
direction of having a recognized ideology, program, etc. -- The
Justice Department and The Department of Homeland Security.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:41 am
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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In article <cvmaov$jqo$1@e250.ripco.com>, Murray Arnow at
arnow@iname.com hath writ:
| Quote: | don groves <dgroves@domain.net (see sig for domain)> wrote:
Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
It beats me how any of this relates to language usage, unless you are
referring to a new meaning for Inquisition. This is the first time I
heard "Inquisition" used to describe any of the above.
|
I failed to OT: the subject line, sorry.
| Quote: | Just to make things clear, you have used either an explicit comparison
or implied comparison to some undefined time. What is that time? It
would be nice if these statements were based on real data rather than a
perception of reality. Unless this also relates to a change in the
meaning of "evidence"--another question of usage.
|
Any time in the past when persons were systematically persecuted
for legal actions or statements deemed improper by presiding
authority.
As far as "real data" vs. perception, all one needs to do is read
the newspapers. As one example, there have been numerous demands
across the country for our schools to teach creationism vs.
evolution as a valid theory of life on earth. Just as in
Galileo's time, science is being attacked by religion.
In our recent election season, the right of the people to
peaceful assembly was violated hundreds of times in cities all
across the country. The presumption of law enforcement was one
of guilt, that a crowd of protesters would become violent, even
though the great majority did not. In many of the cases that did
become violent, inappropriate police action caused the violence
to begin, or to escalate.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:11 am
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:52:26 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
<d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "don groves" <dgroves@domain.net (see sig for domain)> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c8846b3924032a1989881@news.web-ster.com...
Just a random thought: Is the US entering a period which will be
known by future historians as "The American Inquisition"?
Some evidence:
The rising voice of creationism.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Increasing violence against citizens by police.
Demonization of those who hold opposing views.
Incarceration for political opposition.
If future historians adopted this usage it would
be sadly imprecise. The Holy Inquisition of the Catholic
church was a specific institution with a recognized
ideology, staff, programme etc. and its activities can
be described in a fairly complete and factual way. The
phenomena listed here (inc. police violence, Biblical literalism
etc.) lack both selection criteria and any common principle
of organization. The phenomenon was differently named
Zeitgeist by other sorts of historian viz. "the spirit of the
times."
|
And there's nothing in any of those to suggest the root meaning of
inquisition, namely an official inquiry. The Wearren Commission into the death
of President Kennedy was far closer to an inquisition than any of the stuff
listed above.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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Carsten Kruse <c-kruse@t-online.de> wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean wrote:
said. Attempts to find a reliable version in print of any such statement
by Niemoller do not meet with success. Nor can anyone point to a
reliable account of any speech in which produced anything like what is
commonly quoted as his. He certainly seems to have said *something* on
First: It's either Niemoeller or -- much better -- Niemöller.
|
On usenet the norm is 7-bit (ascii),
so 'Niemoeller' is better,
on usenet,
Jan |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Inquisition? |
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don groves <dgroves@domain.net(seesigfordomain)> wrote:
| Quote: | n our recent election season, the right of the people to
peaceful assembly was violated hundreds of times in cities all
across the country. The presumption of law enforcement was one
of guilt, that a crowd of protesters would become violent, even
though the great majority did not. In many of the cases that did
become violent, inappropriate police action caused the violence
to begin, or to escalate.
|
It is indeed slightly amusing to see Mr Bush lecturing Mr Putin
on the virtues of democracy,
Jan |
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