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irwell
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: Female Senator. |
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| The French seem to use Senatrice. |
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Martin Ambuhl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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irwell wrote:
| Quote: | The French seem to use Senatrice.
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And English-speakers use "Senator." Let the French keep their sexism. |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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In message <31evseF3a1auuU2@individual.net>, Martin Ambuhl
<mambuhl@earthlink.net> writes
| Quote: | irwell wrote:
The French seem to use Senatrice.
And English-speakers use "Senator." Let the French keep their sexism.
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Which comment sparks off thoughts of cockator and cockatrice.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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"Martin Ambuhl" <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:31evseF3a1auuU2@individual.net...
| Quote: | irwell wrote:
The French seem to use Senatrice.
And English-speakers use "Senator." Let the French keep their sexism.
|
The situation is more complicated than that, I'd say. To begin with, French
words have gender, not sex, so that a person is "une personne" (feminine
article and noun) while "la Bête" ("the Beast") in "La Belle et la Bête," is
a male monster who was formerly a human prince and is referred to by a
feminine noun and pronoun ("elle").
Nevertheless, there must have been a tension concerning job titles, because
France has been undergoing a process called "la féminisation des titres."
The Académie Française prefers to use masculine words when women enter a
traditionally masculine profession, and at
http://www.academie-francaise.fr/actualites/feminisation.asp
they specifically declare that "sénatrice" should not be used. The
government, on the other hand, has declared that French official documents
must use the feminine versions, so that a female minister in the government
would be referred to as "Madame la Ministre" and a female mayor as "Madame
la Maire" rather than the Academy-preferred "Madame le Ministre," "Madame le
Maire." (And note that neither side uses "Mairesse," that is, "mayoress,"
for the name of the person holding the office.)
French government Web sites appear to prefer "sénatrice" for a female
senator:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=s%C3%A9natrice+site%3Agouv.fr&btnG=Search
As do Canadian government sites:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=s%C3%A9natrice+site%3Agc.ca
The following discussion of the matter, in French, seems to translate fairly
well via Google's translation service:
http://www.frenchteachers.org/frenchreview/viedesmots/vie01oct.htm
It looks as if those who prefer the feminization of titles in French are the
linguistic *liberals,* the sort of people who in English would avoid a
special feminine form of the title of a profession traditionally held by
males, and who would prefer the generic "they." Those who are opposed to the
feminization of titles in French are the linguistic conservatives, those who
defend the generic "he" as being unmarked, just as the Académie Française
defends the use of "sénateur" for a woman senator as being unmarked,
although I expect even the linguistic conservatives would reject the use in
English of "authoress" and "poetess."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Martin Ambuhl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | "Martin Ambuhl" <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:31evseF3a1auuU2@individual.net...
irwell wrote:
The French seem to use Senatrice.
And English-speakers use "Senator." Let the French keep their sexism.
The situation is more complicated than that, I'd say. To begin with, French
words have gender, not sex,
|
That is true except in cases where a feminine form exists for the
purpose of identifying the sex of a person. That is the case here. If
it were merely a case of gender, as in your examples, ...
| Quote: | so that a person is "une personne" (feminine
article and noun) while "la Bête" ("the Beast") in "La Belle et la Bête," is
a male monster who was formerly a human prince and is referred to by a
feminine noun and pronoun ("elle").
.... there would be no excuse for creating this word. |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: 'gender' [Was:Female Senator.] |
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"Martin Ambuhl" <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:31f5ajF3a2bt0U1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Raymond S. Wise wrote:
"Martin Ambuhl" <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:31evseF3a1auuU2@individual.net...
irwell wrote:
The French seem to use Senatrice.
And English-speakers use "Senator." Let the French keep their sexism.
The situation is more complicated than that, I'd say. To begin with,
French
words have gender, not sex,
That is true except in cases where a feminine form exists for the
purpose of identifying the sex of a person. That is the case here. If
it were merely a case of gender, as in your examples, ...
so that a person is "une personne" (feminine
article and noun) while "la Bête" ("the Beast") in "La Belle et la
Bête," is
a male monster who was formerly a human prince and is referred to by a
feminine noun and pronoun ("elle").
... there would be no excuse for creating this word.
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From the standpoint of the Académie Française, there *is* no excuse for
creating the word "sénatrice"! According to
http://www.academie-francaise.fr/actualites/feminisation.asp
the masculine gender is the unmarked gender, making such words as
"chevalière," "officière," "députée", "sénatrice," and so forth words which
should not be used in the case of "the undifferentiated nature of the
titles, ranks, dignities and functions" ("la nature indifférenciée des
titres, grades, dignités et fonctions").
This seems as good a place as any to mention something I came across
recently concerning the term "gender." I've been reading *The Language
Instinct* by Steven Pinker. On pages 27 and 28, while speaking of the Bantu
language Kivunjo, Pinker says of linguistic gender:
"To a linguist, the term _gender_ retains its original meaning of 'kind,' as
in the related words _generic, genus,_ and _genre._ The Bantu 'genders'
refer to kinds like humans, animals, extended objects, clusters of objects,
and body parts. It just happens that in many European languages the genders
correspond to the sexes, at least in pronouns. For this reason the
linguistic term _gender_ has been pressed into service by nonlinguists as a
convenient label for sexual dimophism; the more accurate term _sex_ seems
now to be reserved as the polite way to refer to copulation."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Serge Paccalin
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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Le dimanche 5 décembre 2004 à 00:34:31, Martin Ambuhl a écrit dans
alt.usage.english :
| Quote: | irwell wrote:
The French seem to use Senatrice.
And English-speakers use "Senator."
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Whatever fits them.
| Quote: | Let the French keep their sexism.
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Easy. Language patterns are different; what looks sexist in a language
is antisexist in another and vice-versa.
There is no such thing as a neutral noun in French; "sénateur" is a
masculine noun to be used with masculine articles and adjectives, and
some French people (me included) find it sexist to say "Mme le Sénateur"
instead of "Mme la Sénatrice".
--
___________ 2004-12-05 09:54:26
_/ _ \_`_`_`_) Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
\ \_L_) Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
-'(__) par n'être pas fanatiques pour mériter
_/___(_) la tolérance. -- Voltaire, 1763 |
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irwell
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 10:00:05 +0100, Serge Paccalin
<sp@mailclub.no.spam.net.invalid> wrote:
___________
_/ _ \_`_`_`_) Pourquoi le lettre 'L'?
\ \_L_)
-'(__)
_/___(_) |
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Serge Paccalin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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Le dimanche 5 décembre 2004 à 18:59:57, irwell a écrit dans
alt.usage.english :
| Quote: | ___________
_/ _ \_`_`_`_) Pourquoi le lettre 'L'?
\ \_L_)
-'(__)
_/___(_)
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That's my thumbnail. My thumb partly hides my middle finger.
--
___________ 2004-12-05 19:02:43
_/ _ \_`_`_`_) Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
\ \_L_) Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
-'(__) par n'être pas fanatiques pour mériter
_/___(_) la tolérance. -- Voltaire, 1763 |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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"irwell" <hook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:oje4r0tt5a30i5a58a96cbg3esdrd1hdci@4ax.com...
| Quote: | The French seem to use Senatrice.
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I believe Hillary Clinton prefers Senatrix. |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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In article <31h4toF3c3a07U1@individual.net>, Jess Askin at
dontbother@nospam.net exposited:
| Quote: |
"irwell" <hook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:oje4r0tt5a30i5a58a96cbg3esdrd1hdci@4ax.com...
The French seem to use Senatrice.
I believe Hillary Clinton prefers Senatrix.
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Will she become the party whip?
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Isabelle Cecchini
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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Raymond S. Wise a écrit :
[...]
| Quote: |
The following discussion of the matter, in French, seems to translate
fairly well via Google's translation service:
http://www.frenchteachers.org/frenchreview/viedesmots/vie01oct.htm
It looks as if those who prefer the feminization of titles in French
are the linguistic *liberals,* the sort of people who in English
would avoid a special feminine form of the title of a profession
traditionally held by males, and who would prefer the generic "they."
Those who are opposed to the feminization of titles in French are the
linguistic conservatives, those who defend the generic "he" as being
unmarked, just as the Académie Française defends the use of
"sénateur" for a woman senator as being unmarked, although I expect
even the linguistic conservatives would reject the use in English of
"authoress" and "poetess."
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You've provided an accurate summary of the question, and the site you've
given a link to is also a fair discussion about the issue.
I find that the people you call "linguistic liberals" and those you call
"linguistic conservatives" share a common characteristic: they all try
to make language work according to their desires in a systematic manner.
They ask you to take sides, to be either for or against them, and they
think that language can be regulated by committees or advice given in
official decrees. They enlist logic, sociology, history, etymology,
linguistics or tradition, as the case may be, as their powerful allies.
Everything seems to have to be scientifically reasoned out --for values
of scientific which include logical, or historical, or etymological, or
some or all of the above, as the case may be--.
When I read such discussions, I feel I'm being asked to enroll, to
enlist into either one of the groups, and that makes me very uneasy. I
definitely think that "sénatrice", "compositrice", "députée" and "madame
*la* ministre" are well-shaped and fine-sounding words or phrases, which
have their place in my language. On the other hand, I most strongly
object to "auteure", "professeure", "ingénieure" and "docteure". Why do
I? I have no idea. I do feel that it's not me who is rebelling, but the
language inside me, my love for my mother-tongue which is reacting, and
which is saying: those are misshapen creatures, which it would be
merciful to kill at birth. Others seem to be willing to let them live;
well, let's see what the outcome will be. Let those words show that they
can survive. For my part I won't be giving them any help. If they're
still alive in twenty years' time, I'll see.
--
Isabelle Cecchini |
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Gary Williams
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote in message news:<ttWdnc3qC_mjxy_cRVn-pg@gbronline.com>...
| Quote: | It looks as if those who prefer the feminization of titles in French are the
linguistic *liberals,* the sort of people who in English would avoid a
special feminine form of the title of a profession traditionally held by
males, and who would prefer the generic "they." Those who are opposed to the
feminization of titles in French are the linguistic conservatives, those who
defend the generic "he" as being unmarked, just as the Académie Française
defends the use of "sénateur" for a woman senator as being unmarked,
|
Your estimate of the situation seems to be supported by M. Paccalin,
who wrote
| Quote: | some French people (me included) find it sexist to say "Mme le
Sénateur"
instead of "Mme la Sénatrice".
|
I have thought that the sensitivity of some English-speakers to the
use of "masculine" forms of nouns and their search for neutral
substitutes (or, less often, for distinct masculine and feminine
forms) must be due to the almost exclusive natural basis for gender in
English. Although to me there is nothing at all odd about a female
chairman, or a female postman, obviating the need for such coinages as
"chairwoman/chairperson" or "letter carrier", the fact is that for
many people words like "chairman" and "postman" are marked for gender,
and that means that, in English, they are also marked for sex. (In
implying that I don't consider "postman" to be marked for gender, I
mean that I would find grammatical the statements "the postman reached
into her bag" or "after the chairman cleared her throat, she called
the meeting to order".) I have wondered whether that sensitivity
exists to the same extent in languages with grammatical gender, where
native speakers are used to the idea that the gender of a noun says
nothing about the sex of that to which it refers.
Evidently the answer is not altogether clear when the referent is
personal.
Gary Williams |
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Arcadian Rises
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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| Quote: | From: williamsg4713@juno.com (Gary Williams)
Although to me there is nothing at all odd about a female
chairman, or a female postman, obviating the need for such coinages as
"chairwoman/chairperson" or "letter carrier", the fact is that for
many people words like "chairman" and "postman" are marked for gender,
and that means that, in English, they are also marked for sex. (In
implying that I don't consider "postman" to be marked for gender, I
mean that I would find grammatical the statements "the postman reached
into her bag" or "after the chairman cleared her throat, she called
the meeting to order".) I have wondered whether that sensitivity
exists to the same extent in languages with grammatical gender, where
native speakers are used to the idea that the gender of a noun says
nothing about the sex of that to which it refers.
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In many languages with gramatical gender, when the subject is masculin,
everything else (pronouns, adjectives) flexes to masculine, so the gender
deprivation of a woman is more obvious than "the postman and her bag".
| Quote: |
Evidently the answer is not altogether clear when the referent is
personal.
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When refering to herself (i.e. "I am a good actor") the gender deprivation o
is even more obvious. |
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Andy Dingley
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:08 am
Post subject: Re: Female Senator. |
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On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 00:09:47 +0000, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | The French seem to use Senatrice.
And English-speakers use "Senator." Let the French keep their sexism.
Which comment sparks off thoughts of cockator and cockatrice.
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Why does everything on Usenet turn into a Hillary Clinton flame ? |
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