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Nigel Greenwood
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:54 pm
Post subject: Famously |
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I'm interested in the word "famously", which seems to be quite
fashionable these days. What is meant by phrases like "As Shakespeare
famously said ..."?
My impression is that the speaker/writer wishes to make it clear that
he or she has not just found the quotation for the first time in a
reference book -- or is that unfair?
Otherwise, if the saying really is famous why say so -- unless you
want to tell people from a different cultural background that in
English-speaking circles the saying is indeed well-known.
Nigel
ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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On 2 Nov 2004 00:54:39 -0800, ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk (Nigel Greenwood)
wrote:
| Quote: | I'm interested in the word "famously", which seems to be quite
fashionable these days. What is meant by phrases like "As Shakespeare
famously said ..."?
My impression is that the speaker/writer wishes to make it clear that
he or she has not just found the quotation for the first time in a
reference book -- or is that unfair?
|
It just indicates that the writer or speaker is using a term that
should be familiar to most people. There's a slight indication that
if you haven't heard the term, you should get out more.
| Quote: | Otherwise, if the saying really is famous why say so -- unless you
want to tell people from a different cultural background that in
English-speaking circles the saying is indeed well-known.
Why say so? Why start a sentence with "Actually...."? Why did you |
start your sentence with "otherwise"? Your sentence reads the same
with or without "otherwise". Your inclusion of "indeed" is not
needed. Nothing wrong with your sentences. People just speak and
write they way they do. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On 2 Nov 2004 00:54:39 -0800, ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk (Nigel
Greenwood)
wrote:
I'm interested in the word "famously", which seems to be quite
fashionable these days. What is meant by phrases like "As
Shakespeare famously said ..."?
My impression is that the speaker/writer wishes to make it clear
that
he or she has not just found the quotation for the first time in a
reference book -- or is that unfair?
It just indicates that the writer or speaker is using a term that
should be familiar to most people. There's a slight indication
that
if you haven't heard the term, you should get out more.
[...] |
But it also carries the suggestion that the speaker isn't claiming
special knowledge lacked by his audience. There are a few of these
devices for handling quotations with a degree of modesty: another is
"I think it was X who said..."
Mike. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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Nigel Greenwood wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<2usgl6F2d61tqU1@uni-berlin.de>...
Tony Cooper wrote:
It just indicates that the writer or speaker is using a term that
should be familiar to most people. There's a slight indication
that
if you haven't heard the term, you should get out more.
[...]
But it also carries the suggestion that the speaker isn't claiming
special knowledge lacked by his audience. There are a few of these
devices for handling quotations with a degree of modesty: another is
"I think it was X who said..."
Yes, good point -- but I'm still not convinced about "famously". It
doesn't convey even mock humility. And paradoxically you can't use it
with genuinely famous quotations ('As Hamlet famously says, "To be or
not to be ..." ' -- that would sound ludicrous or robotic).
Macaulay ... famously ... wrote "Every schoolboy knows [who imprisoned
Montezuma, and who strangled Atahualpa]". Perhaps "famously" is in
the same tradition.
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A small variation on "famously" in a letter to the Guardian's 'Life'
supplement:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/opinion/story/0,12981,1342410,00.html
"You report Tim White of Berkeley as saying "Darwin and Wallace would be
pleased ... What better demonstration that humans play by the same
evolutionary rules as other mammals?"
Darwin would undoubtedly have been happy, but not Wallace, who
(in)famously thought that humans were not subject to natural selection,
and left the door open to divine intervention in the creation of our
species.
Dr Matthew Cobb
University of Manchester"
OED has for its most recent definition of "famously" 'excellently,
splendidly, capitally'.
--
John 'as any fule kno' Dean
Oxford |
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Nigel Greenwood
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<2usgl6F2d61tqU1@uni-berlin.de>...
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
It just indicates that the writer or speaker is using a term that
should be familiar to most people. There's a slight indication
that
if you haven't heard the term, you should get out more.
[...]
But it also carries the suggestion that the speaker isn't claiming
special knowledge lacked by his audience. There are a few of these
devices for handling quotations with a degree of modesty: another is
"I think it was X who said..."
|
Yes, good point -- but I'm still not convinced about "famously". It
doesn't convey even mock humility. And paradoxically you can't use it
with genuinely famous quotations ('As Hamlet famously says, "To be or
not to be ..." ' -- that would sound ludicrous or robotic).
Macaulay ... famously ... wrote "Every schoolboy knows [who imprisoned
Montezuma, and who strangled Atahualpa]". Perhaps "famously" is in
the same tradition.
Nigel
ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk |
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Nigel Greenwood
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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"John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote >
<...>
| Quote: | Darwin would undoubtedly have been happy, but not Wallace, who
(in)famously thought that humans were not subject to natural selection,
and left the door open to divine intervention in the creation of our
species.
Dr Matthew Cobb
University of Manchester"
|
Funnily enough, I'd just read that letter in the Guardian without even
making the connection with this thread!
| Quote: |
OED has for its most recent definition of "famously" 'excellently,
splendidly, capitally'.
|
As in the slightly dated phrase "They got on famously".
Nigel
ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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Daniel James wrote:
| Quote: | In article news:<7a31b7bf.0411040336.2298342c@posting.google.com>,
Nigel Greenwood wrote:
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<2usgl6F2d61tqU1@uni-berlin.de>...
... it also carries the suggestion that the speaker isn't claiming
special knowledge lacked by his audience. There are a few of these
devices for handling quotations with a degree of modesty: another is
"I think it was X who said..."
Yes, good point -- but I'm still not convinced about "famously". It
doesn't convey even mock humility.
I don't think it's about humility.
I think people introduce a quote with "as X famously said" to flag
the fact that what follows isn't just their opinion, but has been
said before by someone else. This is done to say "this isn't just my
opinion, someone else that you've probably heard of said it too - so
let's take it as a given".
It's phrased to suggest "of course you all know this already", which
helps to avoid an overtone of condescension.
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I suppose the key to pinning this down is to identify the difference in
the speaker's intent (and mayhap the listener's reaction) between:
"As Bertrand Russell said." and
"As Bertrand Russell famously said."
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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In article news:<7a31b7bf.0411040336.2298342c@posting.google.com>, Nigel
Greenwood wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<2usgl6F2d61tqU1@uni-berlin.de>...
... it also carries the suggestion that the speaker isn't claiming
special knowledge lacked by his audience. There are a few of these
devices for handling quotations with a degree of modesty: another is
"I think it was X who said..."
Yes, good point -- but I'm still not convinced about "famously". It
doesn't convey even mock humility.
|
I don't think it's about humility.
I think people introduce a quote with "as X famously said" to flag the fact
that what follows isn't just their opinion, but has been said before by
someone else. This is done to say "this isn't just my opinion, someone else
that you've probably heard of said it too - so let's take it as a given".
It's phrased to suggest "of course you all know this already", which helps to
avoid an overtone of condescension.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Nigel Greenwood
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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This example, from Matt Ridley's book Mendel's Demon, illustrates a
better way of putting it:
"... James Clerk Maxwell, after whom the famous (or fairly famous)
'Maxwell's Demon' is named."
It just seems a bit more courteous to the reader.
Nigel
ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk |
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Nigel Greenwood
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Famously |
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Oops -- that should have been _Mark_ Ridley: I'm afraid I often
confuse these 2 authors' names.
Nigel |
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