| Author |
Message |
Rodney
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:23 pm
Post subject: Welsh~ a general query. |
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Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a "dialect"
My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German dialect,
So what about Welsh?
Than you kindly for any contributions.
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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Rodney wrote:
| Quote: | Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a
"dialect" My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German dialect,
So what about Welsh?
|
It's a Celtic language, related to Cornish and Breton and more distantly
to the various Gaelics.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Don Aitken
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:45:41 +0100, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Rodney wrote:
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a
"dialect" My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German dialect,
So what about Welsh?
It's a Celtic language, related to Cornish and Breton and more distantly
to the various Gaelics.
|
Here's part of the family tree:
Indo-European
|
West European
|
--------------------------
| |
Celtic Germanic
| |
------------- ---------------------------------
| | | | |
P-Celtic Q-Celtic West Germanic North Germanic East Germanic
Welsh Gaelic German Danish Gothic
Cornish Manx English Swedish (extinct)
Breton Dutch
All of these are languages, not dialects.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:23:17 +0800, "Rodney"
<rodney@touch88gum.com.au> said:
| Quote: | Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a "dialect"
My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German dialect,
So what about Welsh?
|
It's Celtic, only distantly related to the Germanic
languages. |
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Jitze Couperus
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:18 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:23:17 +0800, "Rodney"
<rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: |
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a "dialect"
My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German dialect,
So what about Welsh?
Than you kindly for any contributions.
|
It is closer to a pulmonary condition than a dialect.
Very phlegmatic as it were.
Jitze |
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Adrian Bailey
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 2:24 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:427385d9$1@news.eftel.com...
| Quote: |
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
|
A common misconception.
| Quote: | hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a "dialect"
My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German dialect,
So what about Welsh?
Than you kindly for any contributions.
|
As well as perusing our contributions, do please go look at some Welsh on
the interweb. For example, here's the BBC's Welsh news service:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/welsh/default.stm
Adrian |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:32 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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Adrian Bailey put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
| Quote: | "Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:427385d9$1@news.eftel.com...
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
A common misconception.
|
This surprises me. Is it really common to think this? Where?
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:40 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | Adrian Bailey put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:427385d9$1@news.eftel.com...
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
A common misconception.
This surprises me. Is it really common to think this? Where?
|
Widespread outside the British Isles, I've found.
--
Mike. |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:47 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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On 30 Apr 2005, Don Aitken wrote
| Quote: | On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:45:41 +0100, "John Dean"
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
Rodney wrote:
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a
"dialect" My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German
dialect, So what about Welsh?
It's a Celtic language, related to Cornish and Breton and more
distantly to the various Gaelics.
Here's part of the family tree:
Indo-European
|
West European
|
--------------------------
| |
Celtic Germanic
| |
------------- ---------------------------------
P-Celtic Q-Celtic West Germanic North Germanic East
Germanic
Welsh Gaelic German Danish Gothic
Cornish Manx English Swedish
(extinct) Breton Dutch
All of these are languages, not dialects.
|
Whilst I agree entirely, it's interesting that the OP's pocket Oxford
defines English as a West German dialect, rather than as a language.
(Tings ain't wot they used ter be at the OED, innit...)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:47 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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Mike Lyle put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
| Quote: | the Omrud wrote:
Adrian Bailey put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:427385d9$1@news.eftel.com...
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
A common misconception.
This surprises me. Is it really common to think this? Where?
Widespread outside the British Isles, I've found.
|
Let's see.
To all those who have no connection with the UK or Ireland: before
you read this thread, did you think that Welsh was a dialect (or
other relative) of English? If you are a native or fluent English
speaker, would you have expected to be able to grasp what a Welsh
speaker was saying?
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:47 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:427385d9$1@news.eftel.com...
| Quote: |
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a "dialect"
My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German dialect,
So what about Welsh?
Than you kindly for any contributions.
|
Here's a sentence in Welsh, followed by the official English version: I
don't know how exact the match is between them, but it's clear that Welsh is
not a dialect of English.
"Mae'r adran hon yn esbonio sut mae'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cael ei
drefnu."
"This section of the site gives details of the way the National Assembly for
Wales is organised and structured."
But English is usually spoken in Wales with a Welsh accent and a few
distinctively local expressions, and this "Welsh English" could inexactly
(and offensively, I suppose) be termed a "regionalised English dialect".
Alan Jones |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:50 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
the Omrud wrote:
Adrian Bailey put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
"Rodney" wrote:
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
A common misconception.
This surprises me. Is it really common to think this? Where?
Widespread outside the British Isles, I've found.
Let's see.
To all those who have no connection with the UK or Ireland: before
you read this thread, did you think that Welsh was a dialect (or
other relative) of English?
|
No.
| Quote: | If you are a native or fluent English speaker, would you have
expected to be able to grasp what a Welsh speaker was saying?
|
No.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Sara Lorimer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:54 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | To all those who have no connection with the UK or Ireland:
|
(I think that's me.)
| Quote: | before
you read this thread, did you think that Welsh was a dialect (or
other relative) of English?
|
Nope. Well, maybe relative, but distant.
| Quote: | If you are a native or fluent English
speaker, would you have expected to be able to grasp what a Welsh
speaker was saying?
|
Jesus, no. It's all ffff and lll and wyww and silent g's.
--
SML |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:54 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | On 30 Apr 2005, Don Aitken wrote
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:45:41 +0100, "John Dean"
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
Rodney wrote:
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a
"dialect" My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German
dialect, So what about Welsh?
It's a Celtic language, related to Cornish and Breton and more
distantly to the various Gaelics.
Here's part of the family tree:
Indo-European
|
West European
|
--------------------------
| |
Celtic Germanic
| |
------------- ---------------------------------
P-Celtic Q-Celtic West Germanic North Germanic East
Germanic
Welsh Gaelic German Danish Gothic
Cornish Manx English Swedish
(extinct) Breton Dutch
All of these are languages, not dialects.
Whilst I agree entirely, it's interesting that the OP's pocket
Oxford
defines English as a West German dialect, rather than as a
language.
(Tings ain't wot they used ter be at the OED, innit...)
|
That surprised me, too. I looked in COD9, but that doesn't make the
same mistake; I have no Pocket Oxford to compare.
--
Mike. |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:54 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
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On 30 Apr 2005, the Omrud wrote
| Quote: | Mike Lyle put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
the Omrud wrote:
Adrian Bailey put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:427385d9$1@news.eftel.com...
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
A common misconception.
This surprises me. Is it really common to think this? Where?
Widespread outside the British Isles, I've found.
Let's see.
To all those who have no connection with the UK or Ireland:
before you read this thread, did you think that Welsh was a
dialect (or other relative) of English?
|
A good question -- it struck me as odd, too.
| Quote: | If you are a native or fluent English speaker, would you have
expected to be able to grasp what a Welsh speaker was saying?
|
But I think that's an entirely different -- and virtually unrelated --
question.
I don't think that the definition of a "dialect of language X" involves
the graspability of the dialect by native/fluent speakers of the
standard version -- is it not a great deal more technical than that?
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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