| Author |
Message |
Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:07 pm
Post subject: Re: ***Question about the "greengrocer's" thing*** |
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"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:N2X9e.14338$Pc.4516@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: | "Andrew Gwilliam" <bottomless_pit@southernskies.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4267edc1$0$38044$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:08:02 GMT, Wavy G wrote:
Wouldn't "greengrocer's" be proper, rather than "greengrocers", since
it's possessive (as in "greengrocer's market," or "greengrocer's
stand")? It's proper to use an apostrophe when using a word in the
possessive form, so what's the big deal? Unless this is another
British
thing (forgive me, but I am an American), it is my understanding that
their are only a certain few words where it is proper to spell without
an apostrophe when used in the possessive form, ("its" "yours" etc),
but
I don't think this is won of them. Can somewon "help a brother out"?
Peace and Godspeed.
The answer is perhaps answered by one of these two facts:
1. The number of people who can use an apostrophe correctly is in sharp
decline.
2. British English uses punctuation marks less often than American
English.
We have quite a few words in BrE that fall into the "greengrocers"
category, including (but not limited to):
greengrocers
newsagents [=AusE "newsagency"]
doctors
florists
grocers [= "greengrocers"]
chemists [=AmE "drugstore"]
fishmongers
etc.
Since when does "grocer(')s"="greengrocer(')s"?
It would be unusual to use the apostrophe with these, even for people who
are otherwise careful with their punctuation. Perhaps the possessive
form
has been "nominalized".
I use an apostrophe in all of them, and expect others to, too. Also in
"I'm
going to grandad's." etc.
|
Agreed: apostrophes for all of them in traditional BrE. I assume that these
apparently plural words are actually possessive singulars, truncations of
"the grocer's shop", "grandad's house" and so on. The observation that
"British English uses punctuation marks less often than American English"
may currently be true, certainly in setting out addresses, dates and formal
letters. Punctuation in street or town names on signs and direction
"fingers" may also omit all punctuation - "St Johns Street", "St Albans",
"Butchers Row" etc.
Alan Jones |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:36 am
Post subject: Re: ***Question about the "greengrocer's" thing*** |
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In message <bp1ae.3302$TZ6.2667@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Jones
<atj@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Agreed: apostrophes for all of them in traditional BrE. I assume that these
apparently plural words are actually possessive singulars, truncations of
"the grocer's shop", "grandad's house" and so on. The observation that
"British English uses punctuation marks less often than American English"
may currently be true, certainly in setting out addresses, dates and formal
letters. Punctuation in street or town names on signs and direction
"fingers" may also omit all punctuation - "St Johns Street", "St Albans",
"Butchers Row" etc.
But "St. Jame's Church" on a fingerpost in Reading, Royal County of |
Berkshire, England.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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Andrew Gwilliam
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:59 am
Post subject: Re: ***Question about the "greengrocer's" thing*** |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:36:16 +0100, Paul Wolff wrote:
| Quote: | In message <bp1ae.3302$TZ6.2667@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Jones
atj@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
Agreed: apostrophes for all of them in traditional BrE. I assume that these
apparently plural words are actually possessive singulars, truncations of
"the grocer's shop", "grandad's house" and so on. The observation that
"British English uses punctuation marks less often than American English"
may currently be true, certainly in setting out addresses, dates and formal
letters. Punctuation in street or town names on signs and direction
"fingers" may also omit all punctuation - "St Johns Street", "St Albans",
"Butchers Row" etc.
But "St. Jame's Church" on a fingerpost in Reading, Royal County of
Berkshire, England.
|
An instance of the fingerpost, indeed.
--
Andrew Gwilliam
To email me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "silverhelm" |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:16 am
Post subject: Re: ***Question about the "greengrocer's" thing*** |
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Andrew Gwilliam <bottomless_pit@southernskies.co.uk> writes:
| Quote: | I don't think you're grasping the point here. In BrE the word for
the shop that a greengrocer has is a "greengrocers". Thus: "I went
to the greengrocers down the lane" would usually one mean that one
shop was visited, not several of the same type. The sentence "There
is a greengrocer down the lane" would suggest that the person was
down the lane, not his/her shop.
|
How sure are you that the shop is "the greengrocers" and not "the
greengrocer's" or even "the greengrocers'"? The normal test is to
find a parallel occupation that ends in "-man" and see whether it's
"-men", "-man's", or "-men's", but I can't think of one offhand. If
it really is "greengrocers", then it should be "-men", but my guess is
that it will be one of the others, most likely "-man's".
I'm the treasurer of my block's "homeowners association", but that's
always struck me as wrong, since the parallel would be, e.g., "firemen
association" rather than "firemen's association" or "fireman's
association".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It does me no injury for my neighbor
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to say there are twenty gods, or no
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |God.
| Thomas Jefferson
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:12 am
Post subject: Re: ***Question about the "greengrocer's" thing*** |
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Andrew Gwilliam wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:54:21 GMT, Adrian Bailey wrote:
Since when does "grocer(')s"="greengrocer(')s"?
Maybe it's a regional thing. I grew up knowing the two terms as synonyms,
assuming one to be an abbreviation of t'other. Only now that I'm older and
wiser do I know that once they were different things. But true grocers are
something of a rarity, and I'd be surprised if I'm the only person who
didn't grow up with a distinction between 'em.
I know very few young Australians who understand the difference, mainly |
because (as Andrew says) there are no grocers' shops anymore. Another,
more recent confusion is between "shopping centre" (mall) and
"supermarket", which some people apparently use interchangeably.
--
Rob Bannister |
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