"Go Dutch"

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"Go Dutch"
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J. J. Lodder
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

Quote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:31:03 +0200, the renowned
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

Sure, and a 'Dutch wife" ...

"An open frame constructed of cane, originally used in the Dutch East
Indies and other hot countries to rest the limbs in bed; also a
bolster used for the same purpose. Called thus because it was round,
fat and just lay there."

We discussed this in an a.u.e/sci.lang thread not too long ago:

http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=411438E1.2E408E1F@midway.uchicago.edu

The "open frame constructed of cane" has a precedent in a Chinese device
that literally translates as "bamboo wife" (zhu2 fu1 ren2). In Java and
Bali, the frame was known as a "guling" (literally, something rollable).
The Dutch colonists likely adapted the frame to their own pillow-like
"rolkussen", which the British then mischievously named "Dutch wife".

Spruijt says the term was invented by British officiers
in the colonies too poor to buy a native girl,

Jan

J. J. Lodder
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

Quote:

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:05:08 +0100, the renowned Daniel James
wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:

In article news:<a5k5m0licinkpl58b5e6tfemtrosbkrjd1@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
Sure, and a 'Dutch wife" ...
Jan

"An open frame constructed of cane, originally used in the Dutch East
Indies and other hot countries to rest the limbs in bed; also a
bolster used for the same purpose. Called thus because it was round,
fat and just lay there."

Also "An artificial sexual partner", according to the NSOED.

I'd rate that as fairly deceitful (but at least it won't argue with you).

Cheers,
Daniel.

The Japanese obviously use it in that sense. The Y15,000 plaid-skirted
schoolgirl uniforms for their "Datch Waifu" are a nice accessory. At
least you never have to help it with homework.

I am sure I saw the same years ago in a newspaper
as a brand new American invention,
by a sculptor whose art didn't sell well enough,
with real American housewives as models.
Said to be so lifelike they could be parked in a chair in a corner,
without casual visitors noticing something odd at first siight.

But maybe Americans are great imitators too,

Jan

J. J. Lodder
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

Quote:

The Japanese are no doubt capable of adding that as an accessory too,

Jan

Spehro Pefhany
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:01:52 +0200, the renowned
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

Quote:

Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:05:08 +0100, the renowned Daniel James
wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:

In article news:<a5k5m0licinkpl58b5e6tfemtrosbkrjd1@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
Sure, and a 'Dutch wife" ...
Jan

"An open frame constructed of cane, originally used in the Dutch East
Indies and other hot countries to rest the limbs in bed; also a
bolster used for the same purpose. Called thus because it was round,
fat and just lay there."

Also "An artificial sexual partner", according to the NSOED.

I'd rate that as fairly deceitful (but at least it won't argue with you).

Cheers,
Daniel.

The Japanese obviously use it in that sense. The Y15,000 plaid-skirted
schoolgirl uniforms for their "Datch Waifu" are a nice accessory. At
least you never have to help it with homework.

The Japanese are no doubt capable of adding that as an accessory too,
Jan

In heaven the Japanese would draw up the list of permissible sexual
practices. In hell the Japanese would determine what is compulsory.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Ben Zimmer
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:18 am Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

"J. J. Lodder" wrote:

Quote:

Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:31:03 +0200, the renowned
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

Sure, and a 'Dutch wife" ...

"An open frame constructed of cane, originally used in the Dutch East
Indies and other hot countries to rest the limbs in bed; also a
bolster used for the same purpose. Called thus because it was round,
fat and just lay there."

We discussed this in an a.u.e/sci.lang thread not too long ago:

http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=411438E1.2E408E1F@midway.uchicago.edu

The "open frame constructed of cane" has a precedent in a Chinese device
that literally translates as "bamboo wife" (zhu2 fu1 ren2). In Java and
Bali, the frame was known as a "guling" (literally, something rollable).
The Dutch colonists likely adapted the frame to their own pillow-like
"rolkussen", which the British then mischievously named "Dutch wife".

Spruijt says the term was invented by British officiers
in the colonies too poor to buy a native girl,

I assume the Dutch East Indies are the colonies in question, but I
wonder if the expression dates back to the British interregnum in Java
(1811-16). More likely it's from later in the 19th century when the
Dutch were back in control of Java. The first OED2 cite isn't until
1891, but the Making of America database has this from 1857:

http://tinyurl.com/6tyyn
Jaunt In Java: pp. 324-336
Harper's Magazine, Volume 15, Issue 87, August 1857

...and popping into bed, you find yourself sprawling
over your "Dutch wife." Don't start! You won't get a
curtain lecture; for a "Dutch wife" is merely a round,
hard bolster, which, to the astonishment of every
stranger, is to be seen in every bed laid neatly and
stiffly down the middle like a small corpse. What its
use could be I was a long while finding out, and used
to pitch the poor feminine out of bed every night with
a hearty anathema; but after I was taught her proper
place I saw my error, and became much attached to her.
In a word, the "Dutch wife" is to be put under your legs
or arms to prevent too warm a contact with the mattress,
and to allow a cool circulation of air; and the comfort
which this gives in a hot climate can be appreciated
only by those who have tried it. Still better than one
"Dutch wife" stuffed with cotton are four short, hollow
Chinese ones — one for each limb — made of split bamboo
work.

And there's this 1866 citation:

http://tinyurl.com/3z5u4
My Heathen at Home, by J. W. Palmer: pp. 728-739
The Atlantic Monthly, Volume 18, Issue 110, December 1866

Kicking my "Dutch wife,"* that comfortable Batavian
device, to the foot of the bed, and turning over with a
delicious stretch just as day began to dawn...

* A long, round, narrow bolster, stuffed with very light
materials (often with paper), and not for the head, but
embraced in the arms, so as to help the sleeper to a cool
and comfortable posture.

This story is set in India, so the British had already exported the
"Dutch wife" to the subcontinent by then.

J. J. Lodder
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:04 am Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

Quote:

"J. J. Lodder" wrote:

Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:31:03 +0200, the renowned
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

Sure, and a 'Dutch wife" ...

"An open frame constructed of cane, originally used in the Dutch East
Indies and other hot countries to rest the limbs in bed; also a
bolster used for the same purpose. Called thus because it was round,
fat and just lay there."

We discussed this in an a.u.e/sci.lang thread not too long ago:

http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=411438E1.2E408E1F@midway.uchicago.
edu

The "open frame constructed of cane" has a precedent in a Chinese device
that literally translates as "bamboo wife" (zhu2 fu1 ren2). In Java and
Bali, the frame was known as a "guling" (literally, something rollable).
The Dutch colonists likely adapted the frame to their own pillow-like
"rolkussen", which the British then mischievously named "Dutch wife".

Spruijt says the term was invented by British officiers
in the colonies too poor to buy a native girl,

I assume the Dutch East Indies are the colonies in question, but I
wonder if the expression dates back to the British interregnum in Java
(1811-16). More likely it's from later in the 19th century when the
Dutch were back in control of Java. The first OED2 cite isn't until
1891, but the Making of America database has this from 1857:

It isn't too surprising that 'the other' meaning of 'Dutch Wife'
doesn't turn up in print in the repressed atmosphere
of the 19-th century.

And apart from the occupation of Java there were contacts between the
English and the Dutch through Singapore.

Best,

Jan

Mickwick
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:27 am Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

Quote:

BTW, how much is 'a tot'?

A half-pint. (A half-guess.)

Quote:

Jan
--
"The traditions of the Royal Navy are mutiny, homosexuality, and rum."
(Churchill)

Rum, buggery and the lash, surely?

--
Mickwick

J. J. Lodder
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Mickwick <mickwick@use.reply.to> wrote:

Quote:

In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

BTW, how much is 'a tot'?

A half-pint. (A half-guess.)

Jan
--
"The traditions of the Royal Navy are mutiny, homosexuality, and rum."
(Churchill)

Rum, buggery and the lash, surely?

Depends, do you want to describe reality or offend a Lord Admiral,

Jan

J. J. Lodder
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

Quote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:01:52 +0200, the renowned
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:05:08 +0100, the renowned Daniel James
wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:

In article news:<a5k5m0licinkpl58b5e6tfemtrosbkrjd1@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefha
ny
wrote:
Sure, and a 'Dutch wife" ...
Jan

"An open frame constructed of cane, originally used in the Dutch East
Indies and other hot countries to rest the limbs in bed; also a
bolster used for the same purpose. Called thus because it was round,
fat and just lay there."

Also "An artificial sexual partner", according to the NSOED.

I'd rate that as fairly deceitful (but at least it won't argue with you).

Cheers,
Daniel.

The Japanese obviously use it in that sense. The Y15,000 plaid-skirted
schoolgirl uniforms for their "Datch Waifu" are a nice accessory. At
least you never have to help it with homework.

The Japanese are no doubt capable of adding that as an accessory too,
Jan

In heaven the Japanese would draw up the list of permissible sexual
practices. In hell the Japanese would determine what is compulsory.

But to connect back to the SF thread:
American ones will no doubt become robotized,
and have a coin slot in the back,

Jan

Ben Zimmer
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Mickwick wrote:

Quote:

In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

"The traditions of the Royal Navy are mutiny, homosexuality, and rum."
(Churchill)

Rum, buggery and the lash, surely?

It's more commonly given with "sodomy" as the second term... but in any
case it's a spurious quote, according to the Churchill Centre:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=112
"Rum, sodomy and the lash"
The only traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, sodomy and the
lash. - -- Churchill's assistant, Anthony Montague-Browne said
that although Churchill had not said this, he wished he had.

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=495
In "Diaries and Diarists" [Martin] Gilbert describes the
"golden inkwells" that mean so much to a biographer; in this
and a chapter entitled "Dear Mr. Gilbert" he chops away at the
vines of apocryphal stories choking our image of Churchill,
ascribing to Paul Robinson, Chairman of ICS United States,
the assurance that a famous quote about Royal Navy traditions
("rum, sodomy and the lash!") was not Churchill's. Paul knew
this from Anthony Montague Browne, whose source was WSC
himself; Anthony's speech appeared in Finest Hour #50. "I
felt ashamed to have been caught telling it," writes Gilbert,
"being always so scornful myself of unauthenticated stories."

Mike Lyle
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Ben Zimmer wrote:

Quote:

Mickwick wrote:

In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

"The traditions of the Royal Navy are mutiny, homosexuality, and
rum." (Churchill)

Rum, buggery and the lash, surely?

It's more commonly given with "sodomy" as the second term... but in
any case it's a spurious quote, according to the Churchill Centre:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=495
[...]

The version I knew (from a former RN officer of the Jutland vintage)
was "Rum, bum, and the cat".

Mike.

Ben Zimmer
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Mike Lyle wrote:

Quote:

Ben Zimmer wrote:
Mickwick wrote:

In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

"The traditions of the Royal Navy are mutiny, homosexuality, and
rum." (Churchill)

Rum, buggery and the lash, surely?

It's more commonly given with "sodomy" as the second term... but in
any case it's a spurious quote, according to the Churchill Centre:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=495
[...]

The version I knew (from a former RN officer of the Jutland vintage)
was "Rum, bum, and the cat".

That's a new one... Here's what Partridge's "Dictionary of Slang" has:

rum, bum and bacca (or baccy). The more usual form of
'beer, bum and bacca', held to be the summation of the
sailor's pleasures: nautical, since ca. 1910; by ca. 1950,
more widespread. Later, more accurate parodies of the
traditional "wine, women and song" are 'rum, bum and
gramophone records', quoted by Peppitt as "Merchant Navy:
1940s", and 'rum, bum and concertina' (George Melly,
'Sunday Mirror', 18 Mar 1973). An earlier, contemptuous
dismissal of the nautical life was 'rum, bum and the lash'.

Mike Lyle
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Ben Zimmer wrote:

Quote:

Mike Lyle wrote:

Ben Zimmer wrote:
Mickwick wrote:

In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

"The traditions of the Royal Navy are mutiny, homosexuality,
and
rum." (Churchill)

Rum, buggery and the lash, surely?

It's more commonly given with "sodomy" as the second term... but
in
any case it's a spurious quote, according to the Churchill
Centre:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=495
[...]

The version I knew (from a former RN officer of the Jutland
vintage)
was "Rum, bum, and the cat".

That's a new one... Here's what Partridge's "Dictionary of Slang"
has:

rum, bum and bacca (or baccy). The more usual form of
'beer, bum and bacca', held to be the summation of the
sailor's pleasures: nautical, since ca. 1910; by ca. 1950,
more widespread. [...]

You know, a Sudden and Profound Doubt strikes me with a Horrid Chill.
It seems quite likely that that version was what I was told, now that
I read it. It certaibly makes a great deal more sense.

Mike.

Mike Lyle
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:54 am Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch"

Mike Lyle wrote:

Quote:

Ben Zimmer wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:

Ben Zimmer wrote:
Mickwick wrote:

In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

"The traditions of the Royal Navy are mutiny, homosexuality,
and
rum." (Churchill)

Rum, buggery and the lash, surely?

It's more commonly given with "sodomy" as the second term... but
in
any case it's a spurious quote, according to the Churchill
Centre:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=495
[...]

The version I knew (from a former RN officer of the Jutland
vintage)
was "Rum, bum, and the cat".

That's a new one... Here's what Partridge's "Dictionary of Slang"
has:

rum, bum and bacca (or baccy). The more usual form of
'beer, bum and bacca', held to be the summation of the
sailor's pleasures: nautical, since ca. 1910; by ca. 1950,
more widespread. [...]

You know, a Sudden and Profound Doubt strikes me with a Horrid
Chill.
It seems quite likely that that version was what I was told, now
that
I read it. It certaibly makes a great deal more sense.

Trying to replay the conversation in my mind after more than thirty

years, I get more and more certaib (Freudian crasis of "certain" and
"certifiable") that the "baccy" or "bacca" version was the right one.
It fits the context much better, anyhow. My "uncle" was telling me
how as a fifteen-year-old Midshipman, on the old Temeraire ("Last of
the super-Dreadnoughts"), in about 1916 he'd found two ratings at it.
Nonplussed (see joke about "Colonel, what's the official charge for
cock-sucking?"), he retired discreetly, and consulted the Officer of
the Watch: "Sir, I've just seen two men in the same hammock..." only
to receive the firm and conclusive reply "Xxxx, you didn't see
_anything_."

He it was who, on shore in Ireland at that troubled time, had found a
tempting piece of chalk lying at the foot of a wall; following his
never entirely biddable instincts, he used it to write on the said
wall the familiar and stirring slogan "Up the Rebles!". Stepping back
to admire his calligraphy, he found his shoulder seized by none other
than the good, if now somewhat antiquated, ship's First Officer. That
functionary addressed him in the following terms: "Young Xxxx, you
will immediately repair on board, and report yourself to Yyyy [the
Snotties' Sub-Lieutenant], and ask him for six of the best with the
dirk-scabbard. This is not for your political convictions, which are
entirely your own affair, but for your disgraceful spelling." British
cool goes a long way back; and I hope it will go a long way forward.

Mike.

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