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Message |
Mike Clark
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:18 pm
Post subject: abbreviations |
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Can anybody point me to a hard and fast rule or reference source on the
abbreviation of square metres, including whether there should be a space
between the abbreviation and the number - ie. 10 sqm, 10 sq.m. 10sq.m.,
10sqm
I personally have always opted for the second of the four, or avoided the
problem when translating (from Italian) by writing the number with a
superscript 2 alongside.... since these have occasionally finished up being
printed at normal numbers - unless I am sure of seeting a draft of the
document before it goes to print - I usually use sq.m., but a client has
asked me why I almost often write times without the punctuation and without
the space (9am), but areas with both....
TIA
Mike Clark
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John O'Flaherty
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:09 pm
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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Mike Clark wrote:
| Quote: | Can anybody point me to a hard and fast rule or reference source on the
abbreviation of square metres, including whether there should be a space
between the abbreviation and the number - ie. 10 sqm, 10 sq.m. 10sq.m.,
10sqm
I personally have always opted for the second of the four, or avoided the
problem when translating (from Italian) by writing the number with a
superscript 2 alongside.... since these have occasionally finished up being
printed at normal numbers - unless I am sure of seeting a draft of the
document before it goes to print - I usually use sq.m., but a client has
asked me why I almost often write times without the punctuation and without
the space (9am), but areas with both....
|
The tables I see in my dictionary and on the internet suggest that it's
as in your second option, but without periods- e.g., 10 sq m. You
mentioned using the exponent- I guess you meant putting the superscript
on the units, not the number.
--
john |
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:32 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:18:34 +0100, "Mike Clark" <mclark@rimini.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Can anybody point me to a hard and fast rule or reference source on the
abbreviation of square metres, including whether there should be a space
between the abbreviation and the number - ie. 10 sqm, 10 sq.m. 10sq.m.,
10sqm
|
I understood it was xxx m2, with the 2 as a superscript, but I couldn't be
othered to look up the particular combination of keys you have pr press to get
it, and find that it is far quicker to type "square metres" that "m what the
hell is that Alt thingummijig again"
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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Steve Hayes filted:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:18:34 +0100, "Mike Clark" <mclark@rimini.com> wrote:
Can anybody point me to a hard and fast rule or reference source on the
abbreviation of square metres, including whether there should be a space
between the abbreviation and the number - ie. 10 sqm, 10 sq.m. 10sq.m.,
10sqm
I understood it was xxx m2, with the 2 as a superscript, but I couldn't be
othered to look up the particular combination of keys you have pr press to get
it, and find that it is far quicker to type "square metres" that "m what the
hell is that Alt thingummijig again"
|
10 m²...that's "AltGr+2", which is about as mnemonic as you could hope to
expect....r |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:51 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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Mike Clark writes (text rearranged for convenience in responding):
| Quote: | Can anybody point me to a hard and fast rule or reference source
on the abbreviation of square metres,
|
I didn't expect to be posting this link twice in one day, but the
definitive reference on metric unit symbols is the official standard
where the units are technically defined, which is available in PDF
at <http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP330/sp330.pdf>. This is the US
edition, so it uses the spelling "square meters", but the symbols
are international.
| Quote: | I personally have ... avoided the problem ... by writing the number
with a superscript 2 alongside...
|
What the standard specifies is that square meters are symbolized by
writing the lower case letter m with a subscript 2. Perhaps that's
what Mike meant to say. It's called a symbol rather than an
abbreviation; it's unaltered in the plural and is not written
with a period (unless one is there for some other reason, i.e. at
the end of a sentence).
| Quote: | ... whether there should be a space between the abbreviation
and the number - ie. 10 sqm, 10 sq.m. 10sq.m., 10sqm
|
In the standard I just cited, a space is always used between the
number and the symbol, but there's nothing that says it's required.
I have seen other standards that say it's required, but they are
US or Canadian standards, not international ones. No matter what
any international standard may say, *common practice* in the UK
seems to be that the number and the unit symbol are written
without any space between them.
| Quote: | ... since these [superscripts] have occasionally finished up being
printed [as] normal numbers - unless I am sure of seeting a draft
of the document before it goes to print - I usually use sq.m. ...
|
That's a reasonable practical compromise, but you asked for a "hard
and fast reference" and what it says is that that's not allowed.
It would be correct to spell out the unit name every time, but
hardly practical if it comes up a lot. Now you decide what to do.
--
Mark Brader And now write us
Toronto A devious quasipoem!
msb@vex.net --Richard Heathfield
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:32 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:18:34 +0100, "Mike Clark" <mclark@rimini.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Can anybody point me to a hard and fast rule or reference source on the
abbreviation of square metres, including whether there should be a space
between the abbreviation and the number - ie. 10 sqm, 10 sq.m. 10sq.m.,
10sqm
|
Excuse me, but boooring...
--
Charles Riggs |
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Mike Clark
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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"Mark Brader" <msb@vex.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:11ma929rqmsh56c@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Mike Clark writes (text rearranged for convenience in responding):
Can anybody point me to a hard and fast rule or reference source
on the abbreviation of square metres,
I didn't expect to be posting this link twice in one day, but the
definitive reference on metric unit symbols is the official standard
where the units are technically defined, which is available in PDF
at <http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP330/sp330.pdf>. This is the US
edition, so it uses the spelling "square meters", but the symbols
are international.
I personally have ... avoided the problem ... by writing the number
with a superscript 2 alongside...
What the standard specifies is that square meters are symbolized by
writing the lower case letter m with a subscript 2. Perhaps that's
what Mike meant to say. It's called a symbol rather than an
abbreviation; it's unaltered in the plural and is not written
with a period (unless one is there for some other reason, i.e. at
the end of a sentence).
... whether there should be a space between the abbreviation
and the number - ie. 10 sqm, 10 sq.m. 10sq.m., 10sqm
In the standard I just cited, a space is always used between the
number and the symbol, but there's nothing that says it's required.
I have seen other standards that say it's required, but they are
US or Canadian standards, not international ones. No matter what
any international standard may say, *common practice* in the UK
seems to be that the number and the unit symbol are written
without any space between them.
... since these [superscripts] have occasionally finished up being
printed [as] normal numbers - unless I am sure of seeting a draft
of the document before it goes to print - I usually use sq.m. ...
That's a reasonable practical compromise, but you asked for a "hard
and fast reference" and what it says is that that's not allowed.
It would be correct to spell out the unit name every time, but
hardly practical if it comes up a lot. Now you decide what to do.
--
Mark Brader And now write us
Toronto A devious quasipoem!
msb@vex.net --Richard Heathfield
My text in this article is in the public domain.
|
Thanks ..... would you say that sq.m. and sq.ft. (the latter appears in
several dictionaries) are incorrect?
TIA
Mike Clark |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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Mike Clark and I (Mark Brader) wrote:
| Quote: | Can anybody point me to a hard and fast rule or reference source
on the abbreviation of square metres....
I didn't expect to be posting this link twice in one day, but the
definitive reference on metric unit symbols is the official standard
where the units are technically defined...
Thanks ..... would you say that sq.m. and sq.ft. (the latter appears in
several dictionaries) are incorrect?
|
I would say that "sq.m." is incorrect. It clearly fails to conform
to the standard (which I cited), and the main reason to use SI (the
modern metric system) rather than some other form of measure is supposed
to be that everyone uses it the same way.
I could see some people taking a different point of view, and as I said,
"sq.m." might be an acceptable practical compromise if you don't have
superscripts available *and* need to repeat the unit many times. But
you should at least feel icky about having to use it.
Feet are outside of the SI altogether and therefore the SI standard
is irrelevant. I would not be surprised to see square feet written
as ft² in a context such as conversion to or from metric units like
cm² and m², or if they ever occur in a scientific context. Just about
anywhere else, though, "sq.ft." is what I'd expect, and it certainly
can't be called wrong. It's still the normal style. (In Britain,
where many people have become allergic to punctuation, they might
spell it "sq ft" or "sqft" rather than "sq.ft.")
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "It is one thing to praise discipline, and another
msb@vex.net | to submit to it." -- Miguel de Cervantes, 1613
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) writes:
| Quote: | Feet are outside of the SI altogether and therefore the SI standard
is irrelevant. I would not be surprised to see square feet written
as ft² in a context such as conversion to or from metric units like
cm² and m², or if they ever occur in a scientific context. Just about
anywhere else, though, "sq.ft." is what I'd expect, and it certainly
can't be called wrong. It's still the normal style. (In Britain,
where many people have become allergic to punctuation, they might
spell it "sq ft" or "sqft" rather than "sq.ft.")
|
On "for lease" and "for sale" signs around here, a common symbol for
"square feet" is a square with a single vertical tick mark (the "foot"
symbol) crossing the upper side. I don't think I've ever seen this
other than on a sign.
It is in Unicode as character U+23CD (in the "Miscellaneous Technical"
block), added in March, 2002 (Unicode 3.2.0). (Interestingly, they
didn't add (or even reserve space for) the obvious corresponding
symbol for "square inch".) An image can be found at
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/23cd/index.htm
although the signs I've seen use a vertical tick and don't leave space
between the tick and the line.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | is chaunge
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Withinne a thousand yer, and wordes
| tho
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |That hadden prys now wonder nyce and
(650)857-7572 | straunge
|Us thenketh hem, and yet they spake
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | hem so
| Chaucer |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:08 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
| Quote: |
On "for lease" and "for sale" signs around here, a common symbol for
"square feet" is a square with a single vertical tick mark (the "foot"
symbol) crossing the upper side. I don't think I've ever seen this
other than on a sign.
It is in Unicode as character U+23CD (in the "Miscellaneous Technical"
block), added in March, 2002 (Unicode 3.2.0). (Interestingly, they
didn't add (or even reserve space for) the obvious corresponding
symbol for "square inch".) An image can be found at
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/23cd/index.htm
although the signs I've seen use a vertical tick and don't leave space
between the tick and the line.
|
Now *that* one I've seen elsewhere!...it's the old APL "quotequad"
character....r |
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Chris Waigl
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:38 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:38:55 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
| Quote: | On "for lease" and "for sale" signs around here, a common symbol for
"square feet" is a square with a single vertical tick mark (the "foot"
symbol) crossing the upper side. I don't think I've ever seen this
other than on a sign.
It is in Unicode as character U+23CD (in the "Miscellaneous Technical"
block), added in March, 2002 (Unicode 3.2.0). (Interestingly, they
didn't add (or even reserve space for) the obvious corresponding
symbol for "square inch".) An image can be found at
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/23cd/index.htm
although the signs I've seen use a vertical tick and don't leave space
between the tick and the line.
|
I called up gucharmap, instructed it to display the available characters
by Unicode block and had to admit that this symbol is in none of the fonts
I have installed. It can't be used very much. (I also seem to lack Unified
Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics.)
Chris Waigl
--
blog: http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
eggcorns: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/ |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:53 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> writes:
| Quote: | Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
On "for lease" and "for sale" signs around here, a common symbol for
"square feet" is a square with a single vertical tick mark (the
"foot" symbol) crossing the upper side. I don't think I've ever
seen this other than on a sign.
It is in Unicode as character U+23CD (in the "Miscellaneous
Technical" block), added in March, 2002 (Unicode 3.2.0).
(Interestingly, they didn't add (or even reserve space for) the
obvious corresponding symbol for "square inch".) An image can be
found at
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/23cd/index.htm
although the signs I've seen use a vertical tick and don't leave
space between the tick and the line.
Now *that* one I've seen elsewhere!...it's the old APL "quotequad"
character....r
|
No, that's U+235E. The difference would seem to be that the APL quad
character was generally cap height (and taller than wide), so the
quote character was largely below the top line, while the square foot
character has a shorter square (that's actually square) with the tick
crossing the line.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The purpose of writing is to inflate
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and inhibit clarity. With a little
|practice, writing can be an
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog!
(650)857-7572 | Calvin
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:56 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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|
Chris Waigl <cwaigl@free.fr> writes:
| Quote: | On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:38:55 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
On "for lease" and "for sale" signs around here, a common symbol for
"square feet" is a square with a single vertical tick mark (the "foot"
symbol) crossing the upper side. I don't think I've ever seen this
other than on a sign.
It is in Unicode as character U+23CD (in the "Miscellaneous Technical"
block), added in March, 2002 (Unicode 3.2.0). (Interestingly, they
didn't add (or even reserve space for) the obvious corresponding
symbol for "square inch".) An image can be found at
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/23cd/index.htm
although the signs I've seen use a vertical tick and don't leave space
between the tick and the line.
I called up gucharmap, instructed it to display the available characters
by Unicode block and had to admit that this symbol is in none of the fonts
I have installed. It can't be used very much. (I also seem to lack Unified
Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics.)
|
The only font that www.fileformat.info lists as supporting it is
Code2000. As I said, I've never seen it used anywhere but on signs,
but it's common on signs.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | is chaunge
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Withinne a thousand yer, and wordes
| tho
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |That hadden prys now wonder nyce and
(650)857-7572 | straunge
|Us thenketh hem, and yet they spake
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | hem so
| Chaucer |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) writes:
| Quote: | Evan Kirshenbaum writes:
On "for lease" and "for sale" signs around here, a common symbol
for "square feet" is a square with a single vertical tick mark (the
"foot" symbol) crossing the upper side. I don't think I've ever
seen this other than on a sign.
Most signs like that that I see around here don't mention the area
at all. I've seen some that do, but I don't remember in what style.
|
I should mention that this is usually only on commercial property,
mainly office space.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this.
| MST3K
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: abbreviations |
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Evan Kirshenbaum writes:
| Quote: | On "for lease" and "for sale" signs around here, a common symbol for
"square feet" is a square with a single vertical tick mark (the "foot"
symbol) crossing the upper side. I don't think I've ever seen this
other than on a sign.
|
Most signs like that that I see around here don't mention the area
at all. I've seen some that do, but I don't remember in what style.
--
Mark Brader "The world little knows or cares the storm through
Toronto which you have had to pass. It asks only if you
msb@vex.net brought the ship safely to port." -- Joseph Conrad |
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