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teslnewbie
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: languages with no verb tenses |
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Hello all. :)
I'm currently training in a TESL Canada-certified University program
and I wondered if I could ask the more linguistically inclined folk
here a question: It's a bit of a longshot, but I wondered if anyone
could answer whether there is a simplified chart or list that shows
which languages do and do not use verb tenses. So far, I've tried
google's and opera's respective searches and directories to no avail.
I'd like to examine how you indicate when an action is taking place in
those languages. (Like whether you add an extra word that functions
that way or whatever other possibilities might be out there.) In the
future, I think it would help me formulate ways to explain how tenses
work. (Kind of like how I know how to explain why you can't drop
subjects from a sentence in English like you can in Spanish.) So has
anyone seen a chart or list like that?
Thanks!
Em |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:35 pm
Post subject: Re: languages with no verb tenses |
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teslnewbie wrote:
| Quote: | Hello all. :)
I'm currently training in a TESL Canada-certified University program
and I wondered if I could ask the more linguistically inclined folk
here a question: It's a bit of a longshot, but I wondered if anyone
could answer whether there is a simplified chart or list that shows
which languages do and do not use verb tenses. So far, I've tried
google's and opera's respective searches and directories to no avail.
I'd like to examine how you indicate when an action is taking place in
those languages. (Like whether you add an extra word that functions
that way or whatever other possibilities might be out there.) In the
future, I think it would help me formulate ways to explain how tenses
work. (Kind of like how I know how to explain why you can't drop
subjects from a sentence in English like you can in Spanish.) So has
anyone seen a chart or list like that?
Thanks!
Em
|
I can't help with a list, but I had a Road to Domestos moment a couple
of weeks ago, when I realised that the reason my Chinese-speaking
students drive me to distraction with overuse of time-indicating words
("*nowadays*, it is important it understand that Asian economies...")
is that their L1 doesn't have tenses, and that the only way that in
Chinese languages you can differentiate 'it is important' from 'it was
important' or 'it will be important' (let alone 'it had been being
important' etc etc etc) is with those sorts of time adverbials.
DC |
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J. W. Love
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: languages with no verb tenses |
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Em wrote:
| Quote: | I wondered if anyone could answer whether there is a simplified chart
or list that shows which languages do and do not use verb tenses.
|
You might start by exploring what you mean by that.
| Quote: | I'd like to examine how you indicate when an action is taking place
in those languages. (Like whether you add an extra word that functions
that way or whatever other possibilities might be out there.) In the
future, I think it would help me formulate ways to explain how tenses
work.
|
Why not focus on a language you already know? Morphologically, English
has only two tenses: present or nonpast (_sing_) and past (_sang_).
Other situations in time get indicated by those "extra" words you're
contemplating. You might compare English and Samoan (somewhat
simplified & regularized):
sing(s) = e pese
will sing = 'ole'a pese
is singing = 'olo'o pese
was singing = sa pese
sang = na pese
has sung = 'ua pese
You may want to consider that at least two English nonfinite verb
phrases don't mark tense: the imperative (_sing louder!_) and the
subjunctive (_we insisted that she sing louder_). |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: languages with no verb tenses |
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teslnewbie wrote:
| Quote: | Hello all. :)
I'm currently training in a TESL Canada-certified University program
and I wondered if I could ask the more linguistically inclined folk
here a question: It's a bit of a longshot, but I wondered if anyone
could answer whether there is a simplified chart or list that shows
which languages do and do not use verb tenses. So far, I've tried
google's and opera's respective searches and directories to no avail.
I'd like to examine how you indicate when an action is taking place in
those languages. (Like whether you add an extra word that functions
that way or whatever other possibilities might be out there.) In the
future, I think it would help me formulate ways to explain how tenses
work. (Kind of like how I know how to explain why you can't drop
subjects from a sentence in English like you can in Spanish.) So has
anyone seen a chart or list like that?
Thanks!
Em
|
PS, you won't find a list here either, but the ever-useful 'Learner
English' by Swan and Smith will allow you to run through comparative
descriptions of many of the languages spoken by students you'll
encounter in ESL/EFL.
Good luck with the course BTW.
DC, CELTA 1982. |
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Bob G
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:02 pm
Post subject: Re: languages with no verb tenses |
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teslnewbie wrote:
| Quote: |
(Kind of like how I know how to explain why you can't drop
subjects from a sentence in English like you can in Spanish.)
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I know a little Spanish - can you give an example of that? |
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PR
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:50 pm
Post subject: Subject-Optional Languages |
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| Quote: | (Kind of like how I know how to explain why you can't drop
subjects from a sentence in English like you can in Spanish.)
I know a little Spanish - can you give an example of that?
|
In English, the subjects (I, you, he, she, we, etc.) must always accompany
the verb in the active voice. For example, we say "he gives me what I need"
and not simply "gives me what need." But in Spanish, the subjects are
optional, so "me da lo que necesito" is as correct as "él me da lo que yo
necesito."
My guess as to why Spanish, Italian, Romanian, Latin and certain other
languages are "subject-optional" is because the conjugations of their verbs
are very different between persons, so stating the subject would be
redundant:
Italian:
Mangio (I eat)
Mangi (you eat)
Mangia (he eats)
Mangiamo (we eat)
Mangiano (they eat)
As far as I can tell, German, English, Danish, and many others are *not*
subject-optional because there is little or no change in inflection, so
there would be lots of ambiguity without stating the subject:
Danish:
Jag er (I am)
Du er (you are)
Han er (he is)
Vi er (we are)
De er (they are)
Interestingly, French, a Romance language, is not subject-optional. Maybe
because all the silent letters have made some of the inflections
indistinguishable from eachother in speech?
French:
Je prie (I pray)
Tu pries (you pray)
Il prie (he prays)
Nous prions (we pray)
Ils prient (they pray)
In this case, the 'I', 'you', 'he/she', and 'they' forms are all prnounced
/pree/. |
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Michael Hamm
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:24 am
Post subject: Re: languages with no verb tenses |
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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, teslnewbie wrote, in part:
| Quote: | whether there is a simplified chart or list that shows which languages
do and do not use verb tenses.
|
I don't know of any. But I think (and another regular in this newsgroup
can confirm whether this is correct) that ASL (American Sign Language)
does not use verb tenses; rather, the signer sets a time and then signs
the (tenseless? untensed?) verb.
Hth.
Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Fine print:
http://www.math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:26 am
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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PR <noreply@none.com> writes:
| Quote: | (Kind of like how I know how to explain why you can't drop
subjects from a sentence in English like you can in Spanish.)
I know a little Spanish - can you give an example of that?
In English, the subjects (I, you, he, she, we, etc.) must always accompany
the verb in the active voice. For example, we say "he gives me what I need"
and not simply "gives me what need." But in Spanish, the subjects are
optional, so "me da lo que necesito" is as correct as "él me da lo que yo
necesito."
My guess as to why Spanish, Italian, Romanian, Latin and certain other
languages are "subject-optional" is because the conjugations of their verbs
are very different between persons, so stating the subject would be
redundant:
Italian:
Mangio (I eat)
Mangi (you eat)
Mangia (he eats)
Mangiamo (we eat)
Mangiano (they eat)
As far as I can tell, German, English, Danish, and many others are *not*
subject-optional because there is little or no change in inflection, so
there would be lots of ambiguity without stating the subject:
Danish:
Jag er (I am)
Du er (you are)
Han er (he is)
Vi er (we are)
De er (they are)
Interestingly, French, a Romance language, is not subject-optional. Maybe
because all the silent letters have made some of the inflections
indistinguishable from eachother in speech?
French:
Je prie (I pray)
Tu pries (you pray)
Il prie (he prays)
Nous prions (we pray)
Ils prient (they pray)
In this case, the 'I', 'you', 'he/she', and 'they' forms are all prnounced
/pree/.
|
Linguists tend to say this is arbitrary, and call it "Pro-Drop". Spanish,
Italian, Malay, Swahili, Japanese, etc. are "Pro-Drop languages" and German,
English, French, etc. are not. I think that's silly.
Normally one doesn't need pronominal subjects if they're obvious.
Even English drops predictable subjects frequently in speech:
Ever been to Glasgow?
Never thought I'd see such a thing.
Don't need to ask, do we?
Haven't thought about it yet.
...
This is discussed from time to time on the LINGUIST list; see
http://linguistlist.org/issues/2/2-737.html
http://linguistlist.org/issues/3/3-246.html
http://linguistlist.org/issues/3/3-253.html
http://linguistlist.org/issues/4/4-121.html
http://linguistlist.org/issues/4/4-227.html
http://linguistlist.org/issues/10/10-985.html
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Michigan Linguistics
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Bokonon invites us to sing along with him:
'Horse got to run, bird got to fly,
Man got to wonder, Why? Why? Why?
Horse got to sleep, bird got to land,
Man got to tell himself he understand.'"
-- Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle" |
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PR
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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| Quote: | Note that in French, the slurring of the new pronoun is
already reaching the stage where, for emphasis, another
one has to be added. "Je" hardly exists as an
indepedent word, and almost gets mixed up with the
verb it precedes,
|
I don't know if I'd go that far... at least not all the time :)
| Quote: | particularly if that verb begins
with a vowel - "J'adore" is really one word. So
to emphasise, one has to add "Moi".
|
Yes. In English, this is equivalent to putting extra stress on the word "I".
"_I_ love you, not him" is "Je t'adore, moi, pas lui."
| Quote: | Note also in French, the introduction of "pas" to pair
"ne" in forming negatives. "Pas" was originally a
word meaning "step", so a "ne .. pas" form meant
"not a step", just a way of emphasising. But "pas"
became necessary as "ne" became so slurred and run
in with the following word that it was easy to miss it
and thus completely change the meaning of a sentence.
|
That's interesting! I've never heard that. It's odd, because there are spots
in modern French where "ne" is used without "pas," and the meaning is not
negative. For example, "J'ai peur qu'il ne soit là" means "I'm afraid he's
there," whereas "Jai peur qu'il ne soit _pas_ là" would be "I'm afraid he's
_not_ there."
Also, in informal conversations the "ne" is often dropped, leaving fragments
like "je sais pas." |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:31 am
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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PR wrote:
| Quote: | That's interesting! I've never heard that. It's odd, because there are spots
in modern French where "ne" is used without "pas," and the meaning is not
negative. For example, "J'ai peur qu'il ne soit là" means "I'm afraid he's
there," whereas "Jai peur qu'il ne soit _pas_ là" would be "I'm afraid he's
_not_ there."
Also, in informal conversations the "ne" is often dropped, leaving fragments
like "je sais pas."
|
What is interesting is that in the literary language, not so long ago,
the "pas" was dropped with certain verbs - from memory, I think "je ne
sais" was one of them. How things have changed. You are right, of
course, about the redundant "ne" in certain, mainly subjunctive phrases.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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Robert Bannister wrote:
| Quote: | PR wrote:
That's interesting! I've never heard that. It's odd, because there are spots
in modern French where "ne" is used without "pas," and the meaning is not
negative. For example, "J'ai peur qu'il ne soit là" means "I'm afraid he's
there," whereas "Jai peur qu'il ne soit _pas_ là" would be "I'm afraid he's
_not_ there."
Also, in informal conversations the "ne" is often dropped, leaving fragments
like "je sais pas."
|
And the "je" of "Je sais pas" can merge with the verb, the "zh" sound
becoming "sh," so that the result becomes "Chais pas."
| Quote: |
What is interesting is that in the literary language, not so long ago,
the "pas" was dropped with certain verbs - from memory, I think "je ne
sais" was one of them. How things have changed. You are right, of
course, about the redundant "ne" in certain, mainly subjunctive phrases.
--
Rob Bannister
|
The "ne littéraire" is still in use. It is used with the verb "savoir"
under certain circumstances, although not permitted in others. It is
also used with the verbs "cesser," "oser," and "pouvoir."
See the explanation in the "French Language" section of About.com at
http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa011901L.htm
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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PR
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:07 am
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
| Quote: | That's interesting! I've never heard that. It's odd, because there are
spots
in modern French where "ne" is used without "pas," and the meaning is
not
negative. For example, "J'ai peur qu'il ne soit là" means "I'm afraid
he's
there," whereas "Jai peur qu'il ne soit _pas_ là" would be "I'm afraid
he's
_not_ there."
Also, in informal conversations the "ne" is often dropped, leaving
fragments
like "je sais pas."
And the "je" of "Je sais pas" can merge with the verb, the "zh" sound
becoming "sh," so that the result becomes "Chais pas."
|
Yes, in spoken speech only. You'll only find people writing "chais pas" in
chatrooms... I wrote some things like that once in a French forum and was
reprimanded by the moderator!  |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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PR wrote:
| Quote: | "Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
That's interesting! I've never heard that. It's odd, because there are
spots
in modern French where "ne" is used without "pas," and the meaning is
not
negative. For example, "J'ai peur qu'il ne soit là" means "I'm afraid
he's
there," whereas "Jai peur qu'il ne soit _pas_ là" would be "I'm afraid
he's
_not_ there."
Also, in informal conversations the "ne" is often dropped, leaving
fragments
like "je sais pas."
And the "je" of "Je sais pas" can merge with the verb, the "zh" sound
becoming "sh," so that the result becomes "Chais pas."
Yes, in spoken speech only. You'll only find people writing "chais pas" in
chatrooms... I wrote some things like that once in a French forum and was
reprimanded by the moderator!
|
Would he have found "Je sais pas" acceptable or do you believe he was
insisting upon "Je ne sais pas"?
There is a vast difference between spoken and written French (linguist
John McWhorter touches upon this in his *The Power of Babel*), and I'm
not referring to the etymological spelling. "Chais pas" (less often
written "Ch'ais pas") is a phonetic representation of the spoken word,
and I saw it in print long before the Internet existed. In other words
"Chais pas"/"Ch'ais pas" is more like "gonna" and "woulda" than it is
like "d00d" or "l8tr."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Chris Waigl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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Robert Bannister wrote:
| Quote: | What is interesting is that in the literary language, not so long ago,
the "pas" was dropped with certain verbs - from memory, I think "je ne
sais" was one of them. How things have changed.
|
They haven't, entirely. In the formal register and in much written
language, including published fiction, _savoir_, _pouvoir_, _cesser_,
_oser_ (and maybe some others) only take a preceding _ne_ for the simple
negation.
Even in spoken French this still happens, though there are fine
gradations of formality. No-one would be surprised at hearing "Je ne
sais quoi dire" ("I don't know what to say"), but if you ask a friend
for help with your maths homework saying "Je ne sais resoudre cette
équation", it may be taken as a mark of stuffiness or condescension.
Less so than, say, employing the subjunctive of the imperfect in speech
(a big no-no unless you're among people who know your idiosyncrasies).
It's much more likely for a child to say "Je sais pas resoudre cette
équation".
Chris Waigl
--
blog: http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
eggcorns: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/ |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | PR wrote:
"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
That's interesting! I've never heard that. It's odd, because there are
spots
in modern French where "ne" is used without "pas," and the meaning is
not
negative. For example, "J'ai peur qu'il ne soit là" means "I'm afraid
he's
there," whereas "Jai peur qu'il ne soit _pas_ là" would be "I'm afraid
he's
_not_ there."
Also, in informal conversations the "ne" is often dropped, leaving
fragments
like "je sais pas."
And the "je" of "Je sais pas" can merge with the verb, the "zh" sound
becoming "sh," so that the result becomes "Chais pas."
Yes, in spoken speech only. You'll only find people writing "chais pas" in
chatrooms... I wrote some things like that once in a French forum and was
reprimanded by the moderator! :)
Would he have found "Je sais pas" acceptable or do you believe he was
insisting upon "Je ne sais pas"?
There is a vast difference between spoken and written French (linguist
John McWhorter touches upon this in his *The Power of Babel*), and I'm
not referring to the etymological spelling. "Chais pas" (less often
written "Ch'ais pas") is a phonetic representation of the spoken word,
and I saw it in print long before the Internet existed. In other words
"Chais pas"/"Ch'ais pas" is more like "gonna" and "woulda" than it is
like "d00d" or "l8tr."
|
It occurs to me that I need to make a slight correction: While I did
encounter "Chais pas" in print in the years prior to the invention of
the Internet, I believe that I encountered "Ch'ais pas" first when
doing a search for "Chais pas" via Google. Still, "Ch'ais pas" would
appear to be the more conservative version (as "bo's'un," for
"boatswain," is more conservative than "bosun").
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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