| Author |
Message |
E Rodent
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:10 am
Post subject: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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With certain verbs, one can either use 'if' for a conditional
construction, or else change the order of words and omit the 'if', as
seen in these examples:
1) If he should arrive here today, then ...
OR: Should he arrive here today, then ...
2) If you had done this earlier, then ...
OR: Had you done this earlier, then ...
3) If it were any higher, then ...
OR: Were it any higher, then ...
I wonder whether these are remnants of a pattern that was perhaps more
widespread earlier. Was it possible to omit the 'if' in this manner
with other verbs, either modals or non-modal verbs?
4a) If I could have done this, ...
4b) *Could I have done this, ...
The sentence in 4b) doesn't sound right. Would it have been acceptable
at some time in the past?
Thanks,
Satish |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:10 am
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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E Rodent wrote:
| Quote: | With certain verbs, one can either use 'if' for a conditional
construction, or else change the order of words and omit the 'if', as
seen in these examples:
1) If he should arrive here today, then ...
OR: Should he arrive here today, then ...
2) If you had done this earlier, then ...
OR: Had you done this earlier, then ...
3) If it were any higher, then ...
OR: Were it any higher, then ...
I wonder whether these are remnants of a pattern that was perhaps more
widespread earlier. Was it possible to omit the 'if' in this manner
with other verbs, either modals or non-modal verbs?
4a) If I could have done this, ...
4b) *Could I have done this, ...
The sentence in 4b) doesn't sound right. Would it have been acceptable
at some time in the past?
|
Well, it was still acceptable as I typed this.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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R J Valentine
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:10 am
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:48:10 -0700 Skitt <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote:
} E Rodent wrote:
}
}> With certain verbs, one can either use 'if' for a conditional
}> construction, or else change the order of words and omit the 'if', as
}> seen in these examples:
}>
}> 1) If he should arrive here today, then ...
}> OR: Should he arrive here today, then ...
}>
}> 2) If you had done this earlier, then ...
}> OR: Had you done this earlier, then ...
}>
}> 3) If it were any higher, then ...
}> OR: Were it any higher, then ...
}>
}> I wonder whether these are remnants of a pattern that was perhaps more
}> widespread earlier. Was it possible to omit the 'if' in this manner
}> with other verbs, either modals or non-modal verbs?
}>
}> 4a) If I could have done this, ...
}> 4b) *Could I have done this, ...
}>
}> The sentence in 4b) doesn't sound right. Would it have been acceptable
}> at some time in the past?
}
} Well, it was still acceptable as I typed this.
You sure?
Where's Prof. Lawler? He probably has a web page about this very
exception.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@theWorld.com> |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:15 pm
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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R J Valentine wrote:
| Quote: | Skitt wrote:
} E Rodent wrote:
}> With certain verbs, one can either use 'if' for a conditional
}> construction, or else change the order of words and omit the 'if',
]> as seen in these examples:
}
}> 1) If he should arrive here today, then ...
}> OR: Should he arrive here today, then ...
}
}> 2) If you had done this earlier, then ...
}> OR: Had you done this earlier, then ...
}
}> 3) If it were any higher, then ...
}> OR: Were it any higher, then ...
}
}> I wonder whether these are remnants of a pattern that was perhaps
]> more widespread earlier. Was it possible to omit the 'if' in this
]> manner with other verbs, either modals or non-modal verbs?
}
}> 4a) If I could have done this, ...
}> 4b) *Could I have done this, ...
}
}> The sentence in 4b) doesn't sound right. Would it have been
]> acceptable at some time in the past?
}
} Well, it was still acceptable as I typed this.
You sure?
Where's Prof. Lawler? He probably has a web page about this very
exception.
|
Could I have illustrated my usage, you wouldn't have been questioning it.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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E Rodent
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:12 am
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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| Quote: | Could I have illustrated my usage, you wouldn't have been questioning it.
|
It still seems odd to me...
Could the usage be regional, perhaps? Can anyone point to published
instances
of such a construction with 'could' in recent times in mainstream
media?
Are there any examples of other verbs (other than 'could') where such a
construction
may be found acceptable at least by some?
E.g., would the following be considered acceptable by some?
*Will it rain, you will get wet.
Thanks,
Satish |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:17 pm
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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E Rodent wrote:
| Quote: | Could I have illustrated my usage, you wouldn't have been questioning it.
It still seems odd to me...
Could the usage be regional, perhaps? Can anyone point to published
instances
of such a construction with 'could' in recent times in mainstream
media?
Are there any examples of other verbs (other than 'could') where such a
construction
may be found acceptable at least by some?
E.g., would the following be considered acceptable by some?
*Will it rain, you will get wet.
Thanks,
Satish
|
"Could I" is immediately understandable, but seems archaic. In fact, a
search for "Could I but do" via Google shows it to have been used by
Robert Louis Stevenson, among others, and the modern usages appear to
be either poetic or done in a deliberately archaic style.
"Will it rain, you will get wet," on the other hand, strikes me as very
odd.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:02 pm
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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On 3 Aug 2005 18:30:55 -0700, "E Rodent" <ergodic_rodent@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: | With certain verbs, one can either use 'if' for a conditional
construction, or else change the order of words and omit the 'if', as
seen in these examples:
1) If he should arrive here today, then ...
OR: Should he arrive here today, then ...
2) If you had done this earlier, then ...
OR: Had you done this earlier, then ...
3) If it were any higher, then ...
OR: Were it any higher, then ...
I wonder whether these are remnants of a pattern that was perhaps more
widespread earlier. Was it possible to omit the 'if' in this manner
with other verbs, either modals or non-modal verbs?
4a) If I could have done this, ...
4b) *Could I have done this, ...
The sentence in 4b) doesn't sound right. Would it have been acceptable
at some time in the past?
Thanks,
Satish
|
Another thing, but don't forget there are words other than 'if' that
can be put in conditional clauses:
'unless it rains I'm going out'
'until the Sun comes out I'm staying in...'
DC |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1123222678.845931.96990@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
E Rodent wrote:
Could I have illustrated my usage, you wouldn't have been
questioning it.
It still seems odd to me...
Could the usage be regional, perhaps? Can anyone point to published
instances
of such a construction with 'could' in recent times in mainstream
media?
Are there any examples of other verbs (other than 'could') where
such a
construction
may be found acceptable at least by some?
E.g., would the following be considered acceptable by some?
*Will it rain, you will get wet.
Thanks,
Satish
"Could I" is immediately understandable, but seems archaic. In fact,
a
search for "Could I but do" via Google shows it to have been used by
Robert Louis Stevenson, among others, and the modern usages appear
to
be either poetic or done in a deliberately archaic style.
"Will it rain, you will get wet," on the other hand, strikes me as
very
odd.
|
The first clause should be in the present, not the future. Compare
"If it rains, you will get wet," (not "*If it will rain...."). So the
form you're looking for would be "Does it rain, you will get wet."
This is only a little less odd, though.
Your question was whether these sentences would be acceptable to some.
Most people would understand what you were saying, perhaps after a
short pause for thought; but they would think that your English, if
not incorrect, was rather unusual. |
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TsuiDF
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:21 pm
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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E Rodent wrote:
| Quote: | 4a) If I could have done this, ...
4b) *Could I have done this, ...
The sentence in 4b) doesn't sound right. Would it have been acceptable
at some time in the past?
|
I don't know about the past except for my own -- but I would have
written it (were I so inclined) as 'Were I to have been able to do
this, . . . .'
To which could have come the answer, 'Would that you were!'
All a bit archaic sounding, but easier on the ear than the original
(4b).
Cheers,
Stephanie
in Brussels |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:22 am
Post subject: Re: conditionals / subjunctives without 'if' |
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E Rodent wrote:
| Quote: | Could I have illustrated my usage, you wouldn't have been questioning it.
It still seems odd to me...
Could the usage be regional, perhaps? Can anyone point to published
instances
of such a construction with 'could' in recent times in mainstream
media?
Are there any examples of other verbs (other than 'could') where such a
construction
may be found acceptable at least by some?
E.g., would the following be considered acceptable by some?
*Will it rain, you will get wet.
|
I think I would understand it if I were in a Shakespearian sort of mood,
but no, it's not normal. I would tentatively suggest that because we
have so few distinctively subjunctive forms left in English, that it is
necessary to use either one of those or at least what looks like a past
tense (although I would label it subjunctive):
"Were it to rain, you would get wet"
"Had it rained, you would have got wet".
--
Rob Bannister |
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