Me and my friends?

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Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:08 pm Post subject: Me and my friends?

Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language learning aid meant for children of ten or eleven years? Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"? Thanks in anticipation for any advice Regards Kris

JoeTaxpayer
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Quote:

Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language learning
aid meant for children of ten or eleven years?
Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"?
Thanks in anticipation for any advice
Regards
Kris

Would you like to play with my friends and me?
My friends and I are going to the movies.

10 or 11? Sorry, my 6-1/2 year old 'gets' this.
"I" do things, "I" go places,
Things happen to "me", people talk to "me", people are nice to "me"
(because I know not to correct their poor grammar, that's the teachers'
job).

Note: there are two teachers, but they really have the same job.

JOE

Don Phillipson
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

<kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in> wrote in message
news:1120043329.393708.18310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Quote:

Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language learning
aid meant for children of ten or eleven years?
Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"?

You seem not to have understood:
Personal pronoun I is the nominative case
i.e. is grammatically correct as the subject of a verb.
Personal pronoun me is the accusative case
i.e. is grammatically correct for the object of a verb.
The use of either where the other is required
is simply an error.

Neither is "grammatical but stilted." In some
sentences each is correct, in others not. The
missing element you need to provide for child
learners is probably whether their mother tongue
makes a distinction between nominative and
accusative case for personal pronouns.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Mike Lyle
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

JoeTaxpayer wrote:

Quote:

kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language
learning
aid meant for children of ten or eleven years?
Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"?
Thanks in anticipation for any advice
Regards
Kris

Would you like to play with my friends and me?
My friends and I are going to the movies.

10 or 11? Sorry, my 6-1/2 year old 'gets' this.
"I" do things, "I" go places,
Things happen to "me", people talk to "me", people are nice to "me"
(because I know not to correct their poor grammar, that's the
teachers' job).

Note: there are two teachers, but they really have the same job.

And it's quite wrong, I think, to call "my friends and I" "stilted".
"My friends and me" is a very informal colloquial form, but that
doesn't make the alternative stilted, the way "It is I" usually is.

--
Mike.

meirman
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

In alt.english.usage on 29 Jun 2005 04:08:49 -0700
kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in posted:

Quote:

Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language learning
aid meant for children of ten or eleven years?

You're thinking of having an *aid* that will teach them bad grammar?

I would call it a handicap.

Chidren are not too stupid to learn good English.

Quote:

Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"?
Thanks in anticipation for any advice
Regards
Kris

s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 22 years

Pat Durkin
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

<kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in> wrote in message
news:1120043329.393708.18310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Quote:

You, as a teacher, must teach the correct way, especially to children.
Soon enough they will pick up the mannerisms of the region and society types
that they wish to conform to.

Raymond S. Wise
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Quote:

There are two questions here: grammar and politeness.

A sentence such as "I and my friends live in the city" violates a rule
of politeness: It should be "My friends and I live in the city."
Putting "I" first sounds egotistical.

In a sentence such as "Me and my friends live in the city," the most
important rule which is being violated is a grammatical one. To be
precise, that sentence violates a rule of grammar in standard dialects.
In some nonstandard dialects, "Me and my friends live in the city"
would be unquestionably grammatical.

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Mike Lyle
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

Raymond S. Wise wrote:
[...]

Quote:

There are two questions here: grammar and politeness.

A sentence such as "I and my friends live in the city" violates a
rule
of politeness: It should be "My friends and I live in the city."
Putting "I" first sounds egotistical.

In a sentence such as "Me and my friends live in the city," the
most
important rule which is being violated is a grammatical one. To be
precise, that sentence violates a rule of grammar in standard
dialects. In some nonstandard dialects, "Me and my friends live in
the city" would be unquestionably grammatical.

Indubitably. But it brings us up hard against the underlying
political nature of these discussions. As I've said before -- and I
admit I lack the time, funding, and inclination to back it up with
proper research -- we English-speakers are heirs to a rather rare
democratic tradition which for many of us colours our views on
everything from language to ecology. Our tendency to say "To say
'wrong' is wrong" runs quite deep, and must seem arbitrary, and even
perverse, from other viewpoints -- viewpoints which can seem
arbitrary and perverse to me (and that was another example!).

--
Mike.

JoeTaxpayer
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

Quote:

In some nonstandard dialects, "Me and my friends live in the city"
would be unquestionably grammatical.

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Not to put words in your mouth, are you suggesting that this is not just
a case of poor grammar, but an accepted 'dialect'?
In which case 'me' takes on the characteristic of a subject in certain
dialects?
Judy Blume, in one of her 'Fudge' books, used that structure (me and my
friends) and when I was reading the book to my child, I caught it and
read it as 'My friends and I'. When she's old enough to read Mark Twain,
I'll let her figure out the dialects involved, but for now, I'd like my
children book authors to adhere to the rules of english from my younger
days.
JOE

John Flynn
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

JoeTaxpayer wrote:

Quote:

Raymond Wise wrote:

In some nonstandard dialects, "Me and my friends live in the city"
would be unquestionably grammatical.

Not to put words in your mouth, are you suggesting that this is not just
a case of poor grammar, but an accepted 'dialect'?

[Having been a regular reader of Ray Wise's contributions to AEU for some
years, I would hazard a guess of "Yes" as being his reply.]

Yes. All versions of English are 'dialects'. Standard English (that is,
the version that you are holding up for comparison as being most correct)
is just one dialect of many. In this case, it has the special status of
most people considering it to be the dialect that represents English as
it should be. (Ignoring the issue of *which* Standard English we should
use, of course!) There's nothing actually all that special or right or
inherently divine about it, and it has its own share of inconsistencies
and illogicalities (e.g., "I am right, aren't I?"). But by accident,
fortune, and not an insignificant amount of political goings-on, it is
the one that people consider to be 'right'.

Purge your mind of the idea that Standard English is absolutely 'right"
and that other versions are deviations from that ideal, and realize that
StEng is one dialect made special simply because it has been promoted to
the prestige dialect of English. Outside of the structure that rewards
the use of the prestige dialect, this particular dialect is just like any
other, no better no worse.

--
johnF
"Linguistics studies a living language as if it were a dead language,
and native language as if it were an alien tongue."
-- _Marxism and the Philosophy of Language_, Valentin Volosinov

Arthur
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Quote:

ME = object / I = subject.
Am I right?

Best,
Arthur

meirman
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:41 am Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

In alt.english.usage on 29 Jun 2005 10:53:09 -0700 "Raymond S. Wise"
<mplsray@my-deja.com> posted:

Quote:

kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in wrote:
Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language learning
aid meant for children of ten or eleven years?
Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"?
Thanks in anticipation for any advice
Regards
Kris

There are two questions here: grammar and politeness.

A sentence such as "I and my friends live in the city" violates a rule
of politeness: It should be "My friends and I live in the city."
Putting "I" first sounds egotistical.

That's what I've always said, but once a friend of mine, maybe less
educated than I, was reading me a letter before he printed it, and I
corrected him on this. It was something like a proposal from his
business to another, and he said "I and my employees, or I and my
subcontractor" and his answer was that he was primarily repsonsible to
get the job done and he thought "I" should go first to make the point
that he knew that, etc.

What do you and you all think about that argument?

Quote:

Mike Lyle
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

meirman wrote:

Quote:

In alt.english.usage on 29 Jun 2005 10:53:09 -0700 "Raymond S.
Wise"
mplsray@my-deja.com> posted:
[...]
There are two questions here: grammar and politeness.

A sentence such as "I and my friends live in the city" violates a
rule of politeness: It should be "My friends and I live in the
city."
Putting "I" first sounds egotistical.

That's what I've always said, but once a friend of mine, maybe less
educated than I, was reading me a letter before he printed it, and
I
corrected him on this. It was something like a proposal from his
business to another, and he said "I and my employees, or I and my
subcontractor" and his answer was that he was primarily repsonsible
to
get the job done and he thought "I" should go first to make the
point
that he knew that, etc.

What do you and you all think about that argument?

It's a good argument. But he was risking a charge of self-centredness
in some circles. Maybe a more verbose construction would, for a
change, have been better: "I appreciate the xxx, as do all the staff
here...", or "I have consulted the subcontractors, and we agree...",
or whatever. But I doubt if it actually mattered in that case: we do,
consciously or unconsciously, judge people's competence in other
fields on their English, but I don't think it most often overrides
other considerations. The other business might just as well have been
impressed with his apparent willingness to take the responsibility;
or not noticed at all.

--
Mike.

Harvey Van Sickle
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:29 am Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

On 29 Jun 2005, John Flynn wrote

Quote:

JoeTaxpayer wrote:

Raymond Wise wrote:

In some nonstandard dialects, "Me and my friends live in the
city" would be unquestionably grammatical.

Not to put words in your mouth, are you suggesting that this is
not just a case of poor grammar, but an accepted 'dialect'?

[Having been a regular reader of Ray Wise's contributions to AEU
for some
years, I would hazard a guess of "Yes" as being his reply.]

Yes. All versions of English are 'dialects'. Standard English
(that is, the version that you are holding up for comparison as
being most correct) is just one dialect of many. In this case, it
has the special status of most people considering it to be the
dialect that represents English as it should be. (Ignoring the
issue of *which* Standard English we should use, of course!)
There's nothing actually all that special or right or inherently
divine about it, and it has its own share of inconsistencies and
illogicalities (e.g., "I am right, aren't I?"). But by accident,
fortune, and not an insignificant amount of political goings-on,
it is the one that people consider to be 'right'.

Purge your mind of the idea that Standard English is absolutely
'right" and that other versions are deviations from that ideal,
and realize that StEng is one dialect made special simply because
it has been promoted to the prestige dialect of English. Outside
of the structure that rewards the use of the prestige dialect,
this particular dialect is just like any other, no better no
worse.

This is entirely valid.

But to return to the interesting issue raised by the OP,, when should
one introduce to a child the fact that -- by accident, fortune, and not
an insignificant amount of political goings-on -- there exists a
dialect of English with which it's handy to be conversant (in addition
to one's non-standard-but-equally-valid dialects)?

Is "Me and my friends" an appropriate form to use in teaching
materials? Should one simply ignore the Thistlebottoms, in the hope
that this will strip them of any power?

--
Cheers, Harvey

Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)

John Flynn
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Me and my friends?

Harvey Van Sickle wrote:

Quote:

John Flynn wrote

Yes. All versions of English are 'dialects'. Standard English
(that is, the version that you are holding up for comparison as
being most correct) is just one dialect of many. In this case, it
has the special status of most people considering it to be the
dialect that represents English as it should be. (Ignoring the
issue of *which* Standard English we should use, of course!)
There's nothing actually all that special or right or inherently
divine about it, and it has its own share of inconsistencies and
illogicalities (e.g., "I am right, aren't I?"). But by accident,
fortune, and not an insignificant amount of political goings-on,
it is the one that people consider to be 'right'.

Purge your mind of the idea that Standard English is absolutely
'right" and that other versions are deviations from that ideal,
and realize that StEng is one dialect made special simply because
it has been promoted to the prestige dialect of English. Outside
of the structure that rewards the use of the prestige dialect,
this particular dialect is just like any other, no better no
worse.

This is entirely valid.

But to return to the interesting issue raised by the OP,, when should
one introduce to a child the fact that -- by accident, fortune, and not
an insignificant amount of political goings-on -- there exists a
dialect of English with which it's handy to be conversant (in addition
to one's non-standard-but-equally-valid dialects)?

Is "Me and my friends" an appropriate form to use in teaching
materials? Should one simply ignore the Thistlebottoms, in the hope
that this will strip them of any power?

I think we shouldn't underestimate the ability of children to learn the
skill of diglossia.

The trouble with the two influential "centres" of English in the
world today (the US and the UK -- an argument about their actual
influence is one for another day) is that we (yes, I admit that I
was brought up in the kind of environment I shall now speak out
against) grow up in a linguistic situation in which there is only
*one* language and we are taught that there is only *one* version
of this language which is "right" (or "proper" or "pure" or whatever
other loaded term you can think of). However, that situation is
not universal and is far from being the standard set of circumstances.

The majority of people outside of Anglophonia are actually raised in
linguistic situations in which two or more languages are used on a
daily basis in their everyday lives, and as children they pick up
these languages and learn -- automatically, without formal teaching --
which ones to use in which situations. It's not a difficult thing to
do, since this process is repeated millions of times for every
generation that grows up in a multilingual environment. Check any
introductory book on sociolinguistics and you'll be treated to a
description of how natural it is for children to learn the right
languages to use in the appropriate settings when born into societies
that have two, three, or even more, languages in daily use.

Should it really be so difficult for children in a monolingual
environment to learn (in the same way that multilingual children do)
when and where each variety is appropriate and when/where it isn't?
I don't think it would be *as long as* the environment was right
for learning such a thing. Unfortunately, the tradition of "one true
and correct English" seems to be so ingrained in mono-Anglophone
culture that it would take either a major concerted effort to remove
it or some sort of natural catastrophe so we could start again with
a clean slate.

--
johnF
"Life is continuous; it is only those who seek to analyze it who need
discrete categories."
-- _Almost Human_, Shirley C. Strum

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