| Author |
Message |
Isabelle Cecchini
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:06 am
Post subject: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
Hello
There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek which
is still readable here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/,
and I'm trying to get a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that
article. The definition of the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often
used in the context of organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in
total agreement with Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing
that the implied comparison is between the President of the USA and a
"capo". Or is it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some
sort of journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere"
into French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
--
Isabelle Cecchini |
|
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|
 |
Don Phillipson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:29 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
"Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:35vgrrF4qsssgU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek which
is still readable here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/,
and I'm trying to get a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that
article. The definition of the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often
used in the context of organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in
total agreement with Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing
that the implied comparison is between the President of the USA and a
"capo". Or is it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some
sort of journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere"
into French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
|
As Americans understand "consigliere" (through movies,
the books of Mario Puzo etc.) this person is the most
senior member of a Mafia family who is not personally a
criminal (murderer, extortionist, thief etc.), thus both
personally aloof from partisan strife within a Mafia family
and free to circulate in public life, often as a lawyer.
Newsweek called Gonzales "the president’s longtime consigliere"
meaning he has long served as Bush's personal legal adviser.
The commonly understood American meaning of consigliere is
a non-criminal member of a criminal conspiracy, so this use of
the term looks like deliberate slander. But it appeared in a signed
column of comment, to which news story rules may not apply,
also described as "web exclusive" (meaing unprinted?)
I doubt there is more to this than casual unthinking language,
albeit of a type Newsweek would not have tolerated in print
20 years ago.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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|
|
Michael J Hardy
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:28 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
Don Phillipson (d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com) wrote:
| Quote: | As Americans understand "consigliere" (through movies,
the books of Mario Puzo etc.) this person is the most
senior member of a Mafia family who is not personally a
criminal (murderer, extortionist, thief etc.), thus both
personally aloof from partisan strife within a Mafia family
and free to circulate in public life, often as a lawyer.
Newsweek called Gonzales "the president's longtime consigliere"
meaning he has long served as Bush's personal legal adviser.
The commonly understood American meaning of consigliere is
a non-criminal member of a criminal conspiracy, so this use of
the term looks like deliberate slander.
|
It's not slander if it's obviously not intended to be taken
literally, since no one would consequently believe that the
man is a member of a criminal conspiracy. It could well have
been intentional disrespect, however. -- Mike Hardy |
|
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|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:50 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
Don Phillipson wrote:
| Quote: | "Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:35vgrrF4qsssgU1@individual.net...
There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek
which is still readable here:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/, and I'm trying to
get a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that article. The
definition of the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often used
in
the context of organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in
total
agreement with Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing
that the implied comparison is between the President of the USA
and
a "capo". Or is it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference
or some sort of journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating
"consigliere" into French as "éminence grise" --a powerful
adviser,
but one without an official position--would be a good idea.
As Americans understand "consigliere" (through movies,
the books of Mario Puzo etc.) this person is the most
senior member of a Mafia family who is not personally a
criminal (murderer, extortionist, thief etc.), thus both
personally aloof from partisan strife within a Mafia family
and free to circulate in public life, often as a lawyer.
Newsweek called Gonzales "the president's longtime consigliere"
meaning he has long served as Bush's personal legal adviser.
The commonly understood American meaning of consigliere is
a non-criminal member of a criminal conspiracy, so this use of
the term looks like deliberate slander. But it appeared in a
signed
column of comment, to which news story rules may not apply,
also described as "web exclusive" (meaing unprinted?)
I doubt there is more to this than casual unthinking language,
albeit of a type Newsweek would not have tolerated in print
20 years ago.
|
It sounds brutally deliberate to me. And appropriate.
Mike. |
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|
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:42 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
| Quote: | Hello
There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek
which
is still readable here:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/,
and I'm trying to get a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that
article. The definition of the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is
often
used in the context of organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in
total agreement with Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty
believing
that the implied comparison is between the President of the USA and a
"capo". Or is it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or
some
sort of journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating
"consigliere"
into French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one
without an
official position--would be a good idea.
|
I'm pretty sure Gonzales's position on the President's staff is
official. From what I've heard, I don't think he's an "éminence
grise"--more of a loyal minion. Karl Rove might be our éminence
grise.
It would be appropriate to translate it with a harsh term if allowed.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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| Back to top |
|
|
Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:47 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
"Don Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote in message
news:OqwKd.2278$P_3.15345@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
| Quote: | "Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:35vgrrF4qsssgU1@individual.net...
There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek which
is still readable here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/,
and I'm trying to get a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that
article. The definition of the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often
used in the context of organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in
total agreement with Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing
that the implied comparison is between the President of the USA and a
"capo". Or is it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some
sort of journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere"
into French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
As Americans understand "consigliere" (through movies,
the books of Mario Puzo etc.) this person is the most
senior member of a Mafia family who is not personally a
criminal (murderer, extortionist, thief etc.), thus both
personally aloof from partisan strife within a Mafia family
and free to circulate in public life, often as a lawyer.
Newsweek called Gonzales "the president's longtime consigliere"
meaning he has long served as Bush's personal legal adviser.
The commonly understood American meaning of consigliere is
a non-criminal member of a criminal conspiracy, so this use of
the term looks like deliberate slander.
|
It might be, if this writer were the first to use it in a non-criminal
context. But at this late date it's no more than a completely innocuous and
faintly jocular journalistic cliché, along with other pseudo-Mafia terms
popularized by the Godfather movies and The Sopranos. It certainly, at least
by itself, doesn't automatically indicate that the writer doesn't approve of
Bush or Gonzales.
| Quote: | But it appeared in a signed
column of comment, to which news story rules may not apply,
also described as "web exclusive" (meaing unprinted?)
I doubt there is more to this than casual unthinking language,
albeit of a type Newsweek would not have tolerated in print
20 years ago. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:24 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:06:44 +0100, "Isabelle Cecchini"
<isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
Issa lika dissa; ya getta coupla kika ragazzi badda mouta da President
is all.
| Quote: | The definition of the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often
used in the context of organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in
total agreement with Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing
that the implied comparison is between the President of the USA and a
"capo". Or is it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some
sort of journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere"
into French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
|
Those two Jewish gentlemen might agree:
Richelieu est dans l'Enfer,
Favori de Lucifer
Et dans ce lieu, comme en France,
On le traite d'Eminence.
Or summat like that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Adrian Bailey
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:59 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
"Isabelle Cecchini" <isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:35vgrrF4qsssgU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek which
is still readable here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/,
and I'm trying to get a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that
article. The definition of the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often
used in the context of organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in
total agreement with Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing
that the implied comparison is between the President of the USA and a
"capo". Or is it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some
sort of journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere"
into French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
|
What do the following people have in common:
Alberto Gonzales, David Dreier, Harold Hodes, Gil Schwartz, Jim Smith, S.
Andrew Schaffer and Frank "Frankie Loc" Locascio?
They've all been described as "consigliere" in this week's news.
Adrian |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:16 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
In article <cterli$euq$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean at john-
dean@frag.lineone.net hath writ:
| Quote: | Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
Hello
There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek
which is still readable here:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/, and I'm trying to get
a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that article. The definition of
the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often used in the context of
organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in total agreement with
Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing that the implied
comparison is between the President of the USA and a "capo". Or is
it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some sort of
journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere" into
French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
The consigliere, in Mafia lore, is the confidant of the Don and his
principal adviser. He's also the first buffer between the Don and the
rest of the Family. So, eg, in Puzo's Godfather Don Corleone tells
Hagen, the Consigliere, what is to be done. Hagen passes the
instructions to a caporegime or Captain who details a soldier. So
culpability is put in watertight compartments. It's like the cell system
of underground organisations - no-one knows the whole picture. So the
consigliere is an eminence grise but also a Chief of Staff.
One interesting parallel (well, it interests *me*) between the Bushistas
and the Corleones is that George is very fond of describing himself as a
"war-time President". In the movie, Sonny Corleone (acting Don during
his Father's period of sick leave from the corporation) gets annoyed at
Hagen at one point and says "Goddamn it! If I had a wartime
consiglieri -- a Sicilian -- I wouldn't be in this shape."
Apropos war one of the caporegimes says at one point, referring to the
hostilities that have broken out between powerful families:
"That's alright -- this thing's gotta happen every five years or so --
ten years -- helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten years since the
last one. You know you got to stop them at the beginning, like they
should have stopped Hitler at Munich, They should never've let him get
away with that. They were just asking for big trouble."
I'm sure someone has done an exhaustive comparison of the Corleones and
the Bushes. The rhetoric of stopping them at the beginning is familiar
and "Been ten years since the last one." reminds us that there was
little more than 10 years before the first and second Gulf Wars.
|
This is much more in line with my idea of the meaning of the term
after reading Puso. The consigliere would not be outside the
reach of the law, as someone here siad. In fact, as a lawyer, he
would be in deep doodoo with the bar association as well as the
courts for knowingly participating in criminal activity, even if
only as an intermediary.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:17 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
| Quote: | Hello
There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek
which is still readable here:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/, and I'm trying to get
a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that article. The definition of
the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often used in the context of
organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in total agreement with
Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing that the implied
comparison is between the President of the USA and a "capo". Or is
it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some sort of
journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere" into
French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
|
The consigliere, in Mafia lore, is the confidant of the Don and his
principal adviser. He's also the first buffer between the Don and the
rest of the Family. So, eg, in Puzo's Godfather Don Corleone tells
Hagen, the Consigliere, what is to be done. Hagen passes the
instructions to a caporegime or Captain who details a soldier. So
culpability is put in watertight compartments. It's like the cell system
of underground organisations - no-one knows the whole picture. So the
consigliere is an eminence grise but also a Chief of Staff.
One interesting parallel (well, it interests *me*) between the Bushistas
and the Corleones is that George is very fond of describing himself as a
"war-time President". In the movie, Sonny Corleone (acting Don during
his Father's period of sick leave from the corporation) gets annoyed at
Hagen at one point and says "Goddamn it! If I had a wartime
consiglieri -- a Sicilian -- I wouldn't be in this shape."
Apropos war one of the caporegimes says at one point, referring to the
hostilities that have broken out between powerful families:
"That's alright -- this thing's gotta happen every five years or so --
ten years -- helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten years since the
last one. You know you got to stop them at the beginning, like they
should have stopped Hitler at Munich, They should never've let him get
away with that. They were just asking for big trouble."
I'm sure someone has done an exhaustive comparison of the Corleones and
the Bushes. The rhetoric of stopping them at the beginning is familiar
and "Been ten years since the last one." reminds us that there was
little more than 10 years before the first and second Gulf Wars.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Mais un homme comme monsieur--maussade, boudeur, impassible! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robin Bignall
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:23 pm
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:48:34 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <cterli$euq$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean at john-
dean@frag.lineone.net hath writ:
Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
Hello
There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek
which is still readable here:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/, and I'm trying to get
a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that article. The definition of
the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often used in the context of
organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in total agreement with
Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing that the implied
comparison is between the President of the USA and a "capo". Or is
it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some sort of
journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere" into
French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
The consigliere, in Mafia lore, is the confidant of the Don and his
principal adviser. He's also the first buffer between the Don and the
rest of the Family. So, eg, in Puzo's Godfather Don Corleone tells
Hagen, the Consigliere, what is to be done. Hagen passes the
instructions to a caporegime or Captain who details a soldier. So
culpability is put in watertight compartments. It's like the cell system
of underground organisations - no-one knows the whole picture. So the
consigliere is an eminence grise but also a Chief of Staff.
One interesting parallel (well, it interests *me*) between the Bushistas
and the Corleones is that George is very fond of describing himself as a
"war-time President". In the movie, Sonny Corleone (acting Don during
his Father's period of sick leave from the corporation) gets annoyed at
Hagen at one point and says "Goddamn it! If I had a wartime
consiglieri -- a Sicilian -- I wouldn't be in this shape."
Apropos war one of the caporegimes
|
Pete Clemenza
| Quote: | says at one point, referring to the
hostilities that have broken out between powerful families:
"That's alright -- this thing's gotta happen every five years or so --
ten years -- helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten years since the
last one. You know you got to stop them at the beginning, like they
should have stopped Hitler at Munich, They should never've let him get
away with that. They were just asking for big trouble."
I'm sure someone has done an exhaustive comparison of the Corleones and
the Bushes. The rhetoric of stopping them at the beginning is familiar
and "Been ten years since the last one." reminds us that there was
little more than 10 years before the first and second Gulf Wars.
This is much more in line with my idea of the meaning of the term
after reading Puso. The consigliere would not be outside the
reach of the law, as someone here siad. In fact, as a lawyer, he
would be in deep doodoo with the bar association as well as the
courts for knowingly participating in criminal activity, even if
only as an intermediary.
|
That assume a 'whiter than white' bar association. One of the main
reasons, apart from a million dollars of finance, that the drug dealer
Solozzo wants to hook up with Don Vito is that the Don has so many
judges and politicians 'in his pocket'. This leads to the Don getting
shot, Sonny's execution, and Michael eventually replacing Hagen as
consigliere by his father. Hagen, the "kraut mick", simply does not
have the depth of deviousness and viciousness necessary in a wartime
chief of staff.
A recent book "Mario Puzo's The Godfather - The Lost Years" by Mark
Winegardner, copyright 2004 by the estate of Puzo (ISBN 0 434 01213 0
hardback) fills in some of the blanks and adds extra material to the
three movies. Hagen becomes the front man for the apparently legal
side of the Corleone family, and spends some time as a congressman.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:27 am
Post subject: Re: consigliere = eminence grise? |
|
|
In article <71dnv09s5g1brmv0apmcms7cabsohlmci3@4ax.com>, Robin
Bignall at docrobin@ntlworld.com hath writ:
| Quote: | On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:48:34 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net
wrote:
In article <cterli$euq$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean at john-
dean@frag.lineone.net hath writ:
Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
Hello
There was an article recently about Alberto Gonzales in Newsweek
which is still readable here:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872900/site/newsweek/, and I'm trying to get
a grip on the use of "consigliere" in that article. The definition of
the AHD4 mentions that "consigliere" is often used in the context of
organized crime. Now, Newsweek might not be in total agreement with
Mr. Bush's policies but I have difficulty believing that the implied
comparison is between the President of the USA and a "capo". Or is
it? Is it something else, like a jocular reference or some sort of
journalese? And I'm wondering whether translating "consigliere" into
French as "éminence grise" --a powerful adviser, but one without an
official position--would be a good idea.
The consigliere, in Mafia lore, is the confidant of the Don and his
principal adviser. He's also the first buffer between the Don and the
rest of the Family. So, eg, in Puzo's Godfather Don Corleone tells
Hagen, the Consigliere, what is to be done. Hagen passes the
instructions to a caporegime or Captain who details a soldier. So
culpability is put in watertight compartments. It's like the cell system
of underground organisations - no-one knows the whole picture. So the
consigliere is an eminence grise but also a Chief of Staff.
One interesting parallel (well, it interests *me*) between the Bushistas
and the Corleones is that George is very fond of describing himself as a
"war-time President". In the movie, Sonny Corleone (acting Don during
his Father's period of sick leave from the corporation) gets annoyed at
Hagen at one point and says "Goddamn it! If I had a wartime
consiglieri -- a Sicilian -- I wouldn't be in this shape."
Apropos war one of the caporegimes
Pete Clemenza
says at one point, referring to the
hostilities that have broken out between powerful families:
"That's alright -- this thing's gotta happen every five years or so --
ten years -- helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten years since the
last one. You know you got to stop them at the beginning, like they
should have stopped Hitler at Munich, They should never've let him get
away with that. They were just asking for big trouble."
I'm sure someone has done an exhaustive comparison of the Corleones and
the Bushes. The rhetoric of stopping them at the beginning is familiar
and "Been ten years since the last one." reminds us that there was
little more than 10 years before the first and second Gulf Wars.
This is much more in line with my idea of the meaning of the term
after reading Puso. The consigliere would not be outside the
reach of the law, as someone here siad. In fact, as a lawyer, he
would be in deep doodoo with the bar association as well as the
courts for knowingly participating in criminal activity, even if
only as an intermediary.
That assume a 'whiter than white' bar association. One of the main
reasons, apart from a million dollars of finance, that the drug dealer
Solozzo wants to hook up with Don Vito is that the Don has so many
judges and politicians 'in his pocket'. This leads to the Don getting
shot, Sonny's execution, and Michael eventually replacing Hagen as
consigliere by his father. Hagen, the "kraut mick", simply does not
have the depth of deviousness and viciousness necessary in a wartime
chief of staff.
|
Ah, similar to replacing Colin Powell with Ms. Rice?
True, I was assuming an honest legal system. Most naive of me.
| Quote: | A recent book "Mario Puzo's The Godfather - The Lost Years" by Mark
Winegardner, copyright 2004 by the estate of Puzo (ISBN 0 434 01213 0
hardback) fills in some of the blanks and adds extra material to the
three movies. Hagen becomes the front man for the apparently legal
side of the Corleone family, and spends some time as a congressman.
|
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
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