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sam spade
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:38 am
Post subject: What kind of sentence is this? |
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Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed? -- V.S.
Naipaul, Bend in the River
Is the second sentence a fragment, phrase, or what? Thanks to anyone
that can break this one down. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:11 am
Post subject: Re: What kind of sentence is this? |
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sam spade <farangusa@myway.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed? -- V.S.
Naipaul, Bend in the River
Is the second sentence a fragment, phrase, or what? Thanks to anyone
that can break this one down.
|
Sure, you can call it a fragment if that helps you to understand it.
It's a common structure.
The idea is that "Was there perhaps" is understood to apply to all
three:
Was there perhaps a new vision...
Was there perhaps some regret..
Was there perhaps some greater grief...
It would sound awkward to repeat that every time, or to combine it into
one very long question.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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chris_tine49@hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:32 am
Post subject: Re: What kind of sentence is this? |
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sam spade wrote:
| Quote: | Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed? --
V.S.
Naipaul, Bend in the River
Is the second sentence a fragment, phrase, or what? Thanks to anyone
that can break this one down.
|
I'm curious: why do you want to know?
You'll go mad if you start marking sentence fragements in literature.
Besides, they're okay there.
And elsewhere.
Chris |
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Bill Bonde ( ''The chambe
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: What kind of sentence is this? |
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sam spade wrote:
| Quote: |
Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed? -- V.S.
Naipaul, Bend in the River
Is the second sentence a fragment, phrase, or what? Thanks to anyone
that can break this one down.
The writer probably is having a common problem when asking questions in |
written English using long sentences, sometimes with material after the
actual question. Try this:
"Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living, some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed?"
Or this:
"Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen? The life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed? Some greater grief for the things she had betrayed?"
Since these are all questions, it doesn't even show the worst of it,
where the writer has a question and then continues with a statement as
part of the same sentence: "Why do you think that, the bit about the
squirrel?" Would readers prefer: "Why do you think that?, the bit about
the squirrel."
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy. |
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Bill Bonde ( ''The chambe
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:04 am
Post subject: Re: What kind of sentence is this? |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: |
"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices
shouting loud'' )" wrote:
sam spade wrote:
Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed? -- V.S.
Naipaul, Bend in the River
Is the second sentence a fragment, phrase, or what? Thanks to anyone
that can break this one down.
The writer probably is having a common problem when asking questions in
written English using long sentences, sometimes with material after the
actual question.
The writer is Sir Vidia Naipaul, a Nobel Laureate in literature.
The book from which the quotation comes is a novel. I think Naipaul
has earned the right to pose his questions in any syntactical form
that suits him, particularly in his fiction. He doesn't need our
help.
I don't recall saying otherwise. Read as intended, the sentence is |
perfect English. Getting readers to read it correctly the first time
through by choosing effective punctuation, that's the issue.
| Quote: | Try this:
[ ... ]
I snipped the offered corrections, which I find inferior to the
original.
Why? I gave two examples, one with a single question mark and the other |
marking each 'question' within the sentence.
| Quote: | Back to the original question: As I think someone has already
commented, it all depends on what the meaning of "sentence" is. I
have no trouble in attaching the label "sentence" to "Some regret
... betrayed." YMMV.
The problem is that the meta-sentence has gone beyond the '?' mark and |
initial capital letter equals a full stop that many readers expect. It
does give one pause.
If the following were legal, I can make reasonable arguments that it is
the best solution:
"Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living?, some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed?"
The problem I have, however, is that once I allow internal question
marks, why not put them at each felt question?
No comment on: "Why do you think that, the bit about the squirrel?"
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy. |
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Michael Mendelsohn
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:04 am
Post subject: Re: What kind of sentence is this? |
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"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shouting
loud'' )" schrieb:
| Quote: | sam spade wrote:
Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed? -- V.S.
Naipaul, Bend in the River
"Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living, some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed?"
|
This punctuation is losing the extended break after the first question,
so I'd put this as
"Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living - some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed?"
However, now the reader will be assured that this is a question only at
the end of the third line, which is why it makes sense to indicate the
pause not by the hyphen (dash? emdash?), but by the question mark; and
to leave another elliptical sentence. ;)
Cheers
Michael
--
Still an attentive ear he lent Her speech hath caused this pain
But could not fathom what she meant Easier I count it to explain
She was not deep, nor eloquent. The jargon of the howling main
-- from Lewis Carroll: The Three Usenet Trolls |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:04 am
Post subject: Re: What kind of sentence is this? |
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"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices
shouting loud'' )" wrote:
| Quote: |
sam spade wrote:
Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed? -- V.S.
Naipaul, Bend in the River
Is the second sentence a fragment, phrase, or what? Thanks to anyone
that can break this one down.
The writer probably is having a common problem when asking questions in
written English using long sentences, sometimes with material after the
actual question.
|
The writer is Sir Vidia Naipaul, a Nobel Laureate in literature.
The book from which the quotation comes is a novel. I think Naipaul
has earned the right to pose his questions in any syntactical form
that suits him, particularly in his fiction. He doesn't need our
help.
[ ... ]
I snipped the offered corrections, which I find inferior to the
original.
Back to the original question: As I think someone has already
commented, it all depends on what the meaning of "sentence" is. I
have no trouble in attaching the label "sentence" to "Some regret
.... betrayed." YMMV.
--
Liebs |
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Bill Bonde ( ''The chambe
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:49 am
Post subject: Re: What kind of sentence is this? |
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Michael Mendelsohn wrote:
| Quote: |
"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shouting
loud'' )" schrieb:
sam spade wrote:
Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living? Some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed? -- V.S.
Naipaul, Bend in the River
"Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living, some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed?"
This punctuation is losing the extended break after the first question,
so I'd put this as
"Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living - some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed?"
However, now the reader will be assured that this is a question only at
the end of the third line, which is why it makes sense to indicate the
pause not by the hyphen (dash? emdash?), but by the question mark; and
to leave another elliptical sentence. ;)
Except that if English cared about telling you it was a question using |
punctuation, it would use the inverted question mark as in Spanish. In
English, question words and word order tell you that you have a question
right at the start already. It's built into the language. In Spanish,
pronouns can be dropped and therefore word order doesn't always provide
this clue.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy. |
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Michael Mendelsohn
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:44 am
Post subject: Re: What kind of sentence is this? |
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"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shouting
loud'' )" schrieb:
| Quote: | Michael Mendelsohn wrote:
so I'd put this as
"Was there perhaps a new vision of the man she had chosen and the life
she had been living - some regret for the family life she now saw she
had missed, some greater grief for the things she had betrayed?"
However, now the reader will be assured that this is a question only at
the end of the third line, which is why it makes sense to indicate the
pause not by the hyphen (dash? emdash?), but by the question mark; and
to leave another elliptical sentence. ;)
Except that if English cared about telling you it was a question using
punctuation, it would use the inverted question mark as in Spanish. In
English, question words and word order tell you that you have a question
right at the start already. It's built into the language.
|
This morning, I had some kind of sentence in the back of my mind that
started out inverted, but wasn't a question. Tonight, all I can think of
is indirect speech, i.e. a question in indirect speech, which doesn't
really prove much.
It'll probably come to me five minutes after I hit "send" on this post;
if not, you're right and the reader needs no further assurance (but why
then have teh question mark at all?).
Cheers
Michael
--
Still an attentive ear he lent Her speech hath caused this pain
But could not fathom what she meant Easier I count it to explain
She was not deep, nor eloquent. The jargon of the howling main
-- from Lewis Carroll: The Three Usenet Trolls |
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