| Author |
Message |
Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:00 am
Post subject: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking
about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh surname much as "Aman"
is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me that, while "Jones", also
associated with the Welsh, is one of the most common surnames in the US,
"Rhys Jones" looks specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of
"Rhys" by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand to be
Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that begin with
"Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
If I'm right that these "Rhys"-type surnames are extremely uncommon in the
US, despite the prevalence of British-origin or British-appearing
surnames, and if they're as common in the UK as they seem to be (or maybe
they just stand out), what's the reason for this? Are all the "Rhys
Jones"es descended from a single Rhys Jones who lived no earlier than
1800? Is this some legacy of 19th century Welsh neo-nationalism? Were
surnames unused in Wales before the 19th century? Were all the "Rhys"es
"Rice"es or Reeces or Reeses prior to that time? The 19th century thing
doesn't explain everything, since there must have been a fair amount of
post-1789 Welsh immigration to the US. Does a surname like "Rhys Jones"
suggest middle-class status in a way that bare "Jones" or "Rhys" wouldn't
(see FN1 below)?
The Richoux Ratio[TM] of "rhys jones" to "rhys jones" site:.uk is 3:1,
which suggests that there's something going on here.
[1]More general question: what's the cultural significance of such
hyphenated or double surnames in the UK? To my untrained AmE eye they
seem a lot more prevalent in the UK than in the US (I'm not including
post-1970 women who use hyphenated surnames comprising their maiden and
married surnames) and seem sort of pretentious or rising-bourgeoisie in
nature in a sort of antiquated way (NTTAWWT).
--
Steny '08! |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:06 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
|
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Areff wrote:
| Quote: | Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking
about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh surname much as
"Aman" is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me that, while
"Jones", also associated with the Welsh, is one of the most common
surnames in the US, "Rhys Jones" looks specifically British (indeed,
this is probably true of "Rhys" by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or
"Reese" which I understand to be Anglicized forms), and other
hyphenated or double surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys
Davies"[1]).
|
ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:13 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On 15 Jan 2005, Skitt wrote
| Quote: | Areff wrote:
Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to
thinking about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh
surname much as "Aman" is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me
that, while "Jones", also associated with the Welsh, is one of
the most common surnames in the US, "Rhys Jones" looks
specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of "Rhys" by
itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand to be
Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that
begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?
|
Unfair ObAUE, sez I: he wrote "one of the most common", which commonly
implies a set comprising "the most common" without, commonly, implying
supremacy in commonness.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
|
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | Skitt wrote:
Areff wrote:
Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to
thinking about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh
surname much as "Aman" is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me
that, while "Jones", also associated with the Welsh, is one of
the most common surnames in the US, "Rhys Jones" looks
specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of "Rhys" by
itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand to be
Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that
begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?
Unfair ObAUE, sez I: he wrote "one of the most common", which
commonly implies a set comprising "the most common" without,
commonly, implying supremacy in commonness.
|
Oh, there's nothing unfair about an obAUE, as it is not an Oy! or anything
like it. Mine was merely a friendly inquiry. In English usage, that is.
No harm meant. As you were, and all that stuff.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:11 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On 15 Jan 2005, Skitt wrote
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
Skitt wrote:
Areff wrote:
Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to
thinking about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh
surname much as "Aman" is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to
me that, while "Jones", also associated with the Welsh, is one
of the most common surnames in the US, "Rhys Jones" looks
specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of "Rhys"
by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand
to be Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double
surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?
Unfair ObAUE, sez I: he wrote "one of the most common", which
commonly implies a set comprising "the most common" without,
commonly, implying supremacy in commonness.
Oh, there's nothing unfair about an obAUE, as it is not an Oy! or
anything like it. Mine was merely a friendly inquiry. In English
usage, that is. No harm meant. As you were, and all that stuff.
|
OK; I'm as I was....
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:54 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On 15 Jan 2005 22:00:56 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking
about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh surname much as "Aman"
is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me that, while "Jones", also
associated with the Welsh, is one of the most common surnames in the US,
"Rhys Jones" looks specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of
"Rhys" by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand to be
Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that begin with
"Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
|
Like Mandy Rice Davies? Davies and variations like Davys and Davis
are also Welsh.
The thing with 'Jones' is that it's such a prevalent name in Wales. I
mean, we're not talking Kim in Korea, but it's getting there. This
led to the frequently quoted and stereotypical notion of naming people
after their professions - Jones the Fruit, Jones the Plumbing, Jones
the Psychotherapy etc, not to mention the well-known Dai Postman and
Dai the Death undertaker. So another way to get round it is by adding
another half to your name, possibly from the distaff side. You get a
lot of Price-Jones, Wynne-Jones, Parry-Jones and various Rhys- Reece-
and Rice-Jones.
| Quote: |
If I'm right that these "Rhys"-type surnames are extremely uncommon in the
US, despite the prevalence of British-origin or British-appearing
surnames, and if they're as common in the UK as they seem to be (or maybe
they just stand out), what's the reason for this?
|
To some extent, these names are markers for people from professional
middle-class families, and maybe they're more likely to be achievers
who are known internationally, giving the false impression that their
names are more common amongst the general population. Would USans
have heard of Griff Rhys Jones? (actor, writer and comic)
| Quote: | Are all the "Rhys
Jones"es descended from a single Rhys Jones who lived no earlier than
1800?
|
Probably not.
| Quote: | Is this some legacy of 19th century Welsh neo-nationalism? Were
surnames unused in Wales before the 19th century?
|
Dunno, but that rings a bell...
| Quote: | Were all the "Rhys"es
"Rice"es or Reeces or Reeses prior to that time? The 19th century thing
doesn't explain everything, since there must have been a fair amount of
post-1789 Welsh immigration to the US. Does a surname like "Rhys Jones"
suggest middle-class status in a way that bare "Jones" or "Rhys" wouldn't
(see FN1 below)?
|
Yes. See above and below.
| Quote: |
The Richoux Ratio[TM] of "rhys jones" to "rhys jones" site:.uk is 3:1,
which suggests that there's something going on here.
[1]More general question: what's the cultural significance of such
hyphenated or double surnames in the UK?
|
Possession of a "double-barrelled surname" in England does indeed
suggest either a 'county set' origin or pretensions to it. It's a bit
different in Wales, where as I said, it's a professional thing - when
I was a kid in Wales people like the doctor and my Dad's solicitor
(AmE 'lawyer who sells your house') all had these sorts of names. I
can't think of a single Scot or Northern Irelander who has one. Oh
hang on, my boss in Edinburgh, but she's one of those....
| Quote: | post-1970 women who use hyphenated surnames comprising their maiden and
married surnames)
|
DC |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:18 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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In article <Xns95DFEBFCF80Fwhhvans@194.168.222.120>, Harvey Van
Sickle at harvey.news@ntlworld.com hath writ:
| Quote: | On 15 Jan 2005, Skitt wrote
Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
Skitt wrote:
Areff wrote:
Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to
thinking about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh
surname much as "Aman" is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to
me that, while "Jones", also associated with the Welsh, is one
of the most common surnames in the US, "Rhys Jones" looks
specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of "Rhys"
by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand
to be Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double
surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?
Unfair ObAUE, sez I: he wrote "one of the most common", which
commonly implies a set comprising "the most common" without,
commonly, implying supremacy in commonness.
Oh, there's nothing unfair about an obAUE, as it is not an Oy! or
anything like it. Mine was merely a friendly inquiry. In English
usage, that is. No harm meant. As you were, and all that stuff.
OK; I'm as I was....
|
I wish I could say that. As I was about 30 years ago.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:54:14 +0000, Django Cat <nospam@please.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On 15 Jan 2005 22:00:56 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking
about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh surname much as "Aman"
is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me that, while "Jones", also
associated with the Welsh, is one of the most common surnames in the US,
"Rhys Jones" looks specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of
"Rhys" by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand to be
Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that begin with
"Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
Like Mandy Rice Davies? Davies and variations like Davys and Davis
are also Welsh.
The thing with 'Jones' is that it's such a prevalent name in Wales. I
mean, we're not talking Kim in Korea, but it's getting there. This
led to the frequently quoted and stereotypical notion of naming people
after their professions - Jones the Fruit, Jones the Plumbing, Jones
the Psychotherapy etc, not to mention the well-known Dai Postman and
Dai the Death undertaker. So another way to get round it is by adding
another half to your name, possibly from the distaff side. You get a
lot of Price-Jones, Wynne-Jones, Parry-Jones and various Rhys- Reece-
and Rice-Jones.
|
Someone once told me that there is no J in Welsh.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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Don Aitken
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:11 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:54:14 +0000, Django Cat <nospam@please.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On 15 Jan 2005 22:00:56 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
Is this some legacy of 19th century Welsh neo-nationalism? Were
surnames unused in Wales before the 19th century?
Dunno, but that rings a bell...
The process of converting patronymics into surnames began in Wales |
about the 16th century, but was not complete until the 19th. Those who
were most exposed to English influence, whether for social or
geographical reasons, moved faster. The Welsh population shares an
extraordinarily small number of surnames, almost all of them converted
patronymics, some of which have absorbed the particle "ap", which
means "son of". So
John Jones
Richard Pritchard
Rees Rhys, Preece, Price
William Williams
David Davis, Davies
Most traditional Christian names are also found unchanged as surnames
- John, Lewis, Rees.
I suspect that the greater popularity of multiple surnames in Wales
has something to do with the fact that there are so few to go round.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". |
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irwell
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:11 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:54:14 +0000, Django Cat <nospam@please.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Possession of a "double-barrelled surname" in England does indeed
suggest either a 'county set' origin or pretensions to it. It's a bit
different in Wales, where as I said, it's a professional thing - when
I was a kid in Wales people like the doctor and my Dad's solicitor
(AmE 'lawyer who sells your house') all had these sorts of names. I
can't think of a single Scot or Northern Irelander who has one. Oh
hang on, my boss in Edinburgh, but she's one of those....
|
That great actor Emlyn Williams was actually christened George
Emlyn Williams. |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:11 pm
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:41:10 -0800, irwell <hook@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:54:14 +0000, Django Cat <nospam@please.com> wrote:
Possession of a "double-barrelled surname" in England does indeed
suggest either a 'county set' origin or pretensions to it. It's a bit
different in Wales, where as I said, it's a professional thing - when
I was a kid in Wales people like the doctor and my Dad's solicitor
(AmE 'lawyer who sells your house') all had these sorts of names. I
can't think of a single Scot or Northern Irelander who has one. Oh
hang on, my boss in Edinburgh, but she's one of those....
That great actor Emlyn Williams was actually christened George
Emlyn Williams.
|
Anoher Welsh professional of course.
DC |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:51:48 +0000, Don Aitken <don-aitken@freeuk.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:54:14 +0000, Django Cat <nospam@please.com
wrote:
On 15 Jan 2005 22:00:56 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
Is this some legacy of 19th century Welsh neo-nationalism? Were
surnames unused in Wales before the 19th century?
Dunno, but that rings a bell...
The process of converting patronymics into surnames began in Wales
about the 16th century, but was not complete until the 19th. Those who
were most exposed to English influence, whether for social or
geographical reasons, moved faster. The Welsh population shares an
extraordinarily small number of surnames, almost all of them converted
patronymics, some of which have absorbed the particle "ap", which
means "son of". So
John Jones
Richard Pritchard
|
Never thought about those being built on the ap- prefix, but of
course. Then there's Mrs Ogmore-Pritchard in Under Milk Wood...
| Quote: | Rees Rhys, Preece, Price
William Williams
David Davis, Davies
|
Thanks for that...
| Quote: |
Most traditional Christian names are also found unchanged as surnames
- John, Lewis, Rees.
|
My (Welsh) grandmother's side of the family had the family name James,
and there were lots of families called John, including a kid in my
class.
| Quote: |
I suspect that the greater popularity of multiple surnames in Wales
has something to do with the fact that there are so few to go round.
|
That's the one.
D C-C |
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M. J. Powell
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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In message <bm9ju0d95fqqks90vmlms0b03qihoor3hf@4ax.com>, Django Cat
<nospam@please.com> writes
| Quote: | On 15 Jan 2005 22:00:56 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking
about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh surname much as "Aman"
is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me that, while "Jones", also
associated with the Welsh, is one of the most common surnames in the US,
"Rhys Jones" looks specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of
"Rhys" by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand to be
Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that begin with
"Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
Like Mandy Rice Davies? Davies and variations like Davys and Davis
are also Welsh.
The thing with 'Jones' is that it's such a prevalent name in Wales. I
mean, we're not talking Kim in Korea, but it's getting there. This
led to the frequently quoted and stereotypical notion of naming people
after their professions - Jones the Fruit, Jones the Plumbing, Jones
the Psychotherapy etc, not to mention the well-known Dai Postman and
Dai the Death undertaker.
|
You forgot the man with only one tooth, in the middle. Dai Central
'Eating.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:20 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:06:54 -0800, "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Areff wrote:
Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking
about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh surname much as
"Aman" is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me that, while
"Jones", also associated with the Welsh, is one of the most common
surnames in the US, "Rhys Jones" looks specifically British (indeed,
this is probably true of "Rhys" by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or
"Reese" which I understand to be Anglicized forms), and other
hyphenated or double surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys
Davies"[1]).
ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?
|
And surnames do not have suffixes.
The Cape Breton Scotch- Canadians have so many Camerons that they have
to do the Welch thing too, except that the Rys-Jones thing does not
work--Cameron-Cameron would be no better than Rys-Ryse. Instead they
do the other Welch thing and, after the style of _Under Milk Wood_'s
Organ Morgan, become Silver Donald Cameron and such. |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:54 am
Post subject: Re: British surname customs: "Rhys Jones" |
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On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:06:35 +0000, "M. J. Powell"
<mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In message <bm9ju0d95fqqks90vmlms0b03qihoor3hf@4ax.com>, Django Cat
nospam@please.com> writes
On 15 Jan 2005 22:00:56 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking
about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh surname much as "Aman"
is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me that, while "Jones", also
associated with the Welsh, is one of the most common surnames in the US,
"Rhys Jones" looks specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of
"Rhys" by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand to be
Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that begin with
"Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"[1]).
Like Mandy Rice Davies? Davies and variations like Davys and Davis
are also Welsh.
The thing with 'Jones' is that it's such a prevalent name in Wales. I
mean, we're not talking Kim in Korea, but it's getting there. This
led to the frequently quoted and stereotypical notion of naming people
after their professions - Jones the Fruit, Jones the Plumbing, Jones
the Psychotherapy etc, not to mention the well-known Dai Postman and
Dai the Death undertaker.
You forgot the man with only one tooth, in the middle. Dai Central
'Eating.
|
Oh dear oh lord!
Powell's another good Welsh name of course...
DC. Grandad was Captain... |
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