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mrf
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:53 pm
Post subject: Question |
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Which of the following, if any, are correct...
1) In concert with their owners, we assist dogs in overcoming...
2) In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming...
3) In concert with their friends, we assist people in overcoming...
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Steven Xu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:28 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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All of the phrases are logically sound. When you say 'their friends,'
you often refer to the friends of the object. To me, 3 sounds correct.
It would help if you completed the sentence, though. |
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mrf
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:04 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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Thank you for your reply.
For dogs (#1), perhaps... overcoming their panic at the sound of
thunder.
For people (#3), perhaps... overcoming the isolation that confinement
to their wheel chair often brings.
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Steven Xu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:37 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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Alright. That all makes sense. Could you please elborate on what
exactly you would like to have verified? Logic, punctuation, etc? |
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Michael Mendelsohn
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:40 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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mrf schrieb:
| Quote: | Which of the following, if any, are correct...
2) In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming...
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Example:
Some people complain that their dogs behave overly territorial towards
other people. This can be nuisance when having friends over for a visit,
because it usually means that the dog must be locked away. Of course,
many dog owners aren't happy with this. In concert with their friends,
we assist dogs in overcoming that territorial behaviour and help them to
learn to accept visitors.
Cheers
Michael
--
Still an attentive ear he lent Her speech hath caused this pain
But could not fathom what she meant Easier I count it to explain
She was not deep, nor eloquent. The jargon of the howling main
-- from Lewis Carroll: The Three Usenet Trolls |
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Peter Seibel
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:22 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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Michael Mendelsohn <invalid@msgid.michael.mendelsohn.de> writes:
| Quote: | mrf schrieb:
Which of the following, if any, are correct...
2) In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming...
Example:
Some people complain that their dogs behave overly territorial
towards other people. This can be nuisance when having friends over
for a visit, because it usually means that the dog must be locked
away. Of course, many dog owners aren't happy with this. In concert
with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming that territorial
behaviour and help them to learn to accept visitors.
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Hmmm. That's sort of a mess. Focusing on the last sentence, since
that's the one you asked about originally, to whom does "we" refer?
And do you mean the owner's friends or the dog's friends? I'd change
that last sentence to something like (guessing at the intended
meaning):
We work with dog owners and their friends to help dogs learn to
accept visitors.
or:
We teach dog owners how, working with a few friendly visitors, they
can help their dogs overcome their territorial instincts and learn to
accept visitors calmly.
or even:
However, dog owners, with the help of their friends, can train their
dogs to be less territorial and to accept visitors calmly.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel peter@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp |
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mrf
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:25 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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"...what exactly you would like to have verified"
Are the sentence (fragments) gramatically correct?
That is, at least one person thinks the initial "their" must refer to
the subject, making the elided...
What we do:
4) In concert with their owners, assist dogs in overcoming...
5) In concert with their friends, assist dogs in overcoming...
6) In concert with their friends, assist people in overcoming...
incorrect.
I am looking at what others think about this question, which is raised
by some proposed language in (3/6), and I decided to look at related
usage in fragments like (1/4) and (2/5) because I suspect the
conversation might benefit from having such examples. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:34 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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First sentence: It should be "territorially" (the adverb)
Second sentence: It should be "a nuisance when they have friends" (the
article "a" is needed)
Third sentence: It should be "we teach dog owners how to help their
dogs overcome that" (the introductory phrase must modify the subject of
the sentence)
Bonnie Granat
http://www.GranatEdit.com |
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mrf
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:41 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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Recap...
1) In concert with their owners, we assist dogs in overcoming...
2) In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming...
3) In concert with their friends, we assist people in overcoming...
elided to...
4) In concert with their owners, assist dogs in overcoming...
5) In concert with their friends, assist dogs in overcoming...
6) In concert with their friends, assist people in overcoming...
"...In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming that
territorial behaviour and help them to
learn to accept visitors ...michael".
In (2), the phrase "their friends" is the type of language that some
might think refers to "dog friends", of the canine variety, others
might think refers to a dog's "people-friends" and still others,
believing dogs don't have friends, might think refers to the stated (2)
or implied (5) WE ,except that it should be OUR not THEIR.
This might invite a confusion (see michael in the above) for (2/5), but
I find it unlikely to occur for anyone in (1/4).
The practical question I need to resolve is ... are 3/6 gramatically
correct? |
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Michael Mendelsohn
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:08 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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mrf schrieb:
| Quote: | Recap...
1) In concert with their owners, we assist dogs in overcoming...
2) In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming...
3) In concert with their friends, we assist people in overcoming...
"...In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming that
territorial behaviour and help them to
learn to accept visitors ...michael".
In (2), the phrase "their friends" is the type of language that some
might think refers to "dog friends", of the canine variety, others
might think refers to a dog's "people-friends" and still others,
believing dogs don't have friends, might think refers to the stated (2)
or implied (5) WE ,except that it should be OUR not THEIR.
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I thought that "their" could refer to persons mentioned in the previous
sentence, hence my example. It couldn't refer to "we" because you
haven't written "our friends". I agree that "their" could refer to the
dogs' friends.
Cheers
Michael
--
Still an attentive ear he lent Her speech hath caused this pain
But could not fathom what she meant Easier I count it to explain
She was not deep, nor eloquent. The jargon of the howling main
-- from Lewis Carroll: The Three Usenet Trolls |
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Michael Mendelsohn
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:12 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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bgranat@granatedit.com schrieb:
| Quote: | First sentence: It should be "territorially" (the adverb)
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You're right. I can't determine for myself whether "behave" is similar
to "seem" or "sound" (which take the adjective), because with "behave"
the "territorially" can be seen as more of a description of the animal
than of its behaviour.
| Quote: | Second sentence: It should be "a nuisance when they have friends" (the
article "a" is needed)
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This is a typo. I'm sorry.
| Quote: | Third sentence: It should be "we teach dog owners how to help their
dogs overcome that" (the introductory phrase must modify the subject of
the sentence)
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I do not understand this point. Could you elaborate, please?
Cheers
Michael
--
Still an attentive ear he lent Her speech hath caused this pain
But could not fathom what she meant Easier I count it to explain
She was not deep, nor eloquent. The jargon of the howling main
-- from Lewis Carroll: The Three Usenet Trolls |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:00 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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"mrf" <mrf@cpes.com> wrote in message
news:1104352886.427118.130070@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Recap...
1) In concert with their owners, we assist dogs in overcoming...
2) In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming...
3) In concert with their friends, we assist people in overcoming...
elided to...
4) In concert with their owners, assist dogs in overcoming...
5) In concert with their friends, assist dogs in overcoming...
6) In concert with their friends, assist people in overcoming...
"...In concert with their friends, we assist dogs in overcoming that
territorial behaviour and help them to
learn to accept visitors ...michael".
In (2), the phrase "their friends" is the type of language that some
might think refers to "dog friends", of the canine variety, others
might think refers to a dog's "people-friends" and still others,
believing dogs don't have friends, might think refers to the stated (2)
or implied (5) WE ,except that it should be OUR not THEIR.
This might invite a confusion (see michael in the above) for (2/5), but
I find it unlikely to occur for anyone in (1/4).
The practical question I need to resolve is ... are 3/6 gramatically
correct?
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Sentence fragment #3 is *grammatically* correct, as far as it goes.
Fragment #6 is also, if you take "assist" to be an imperative form;
alternatively, it could be an item in a list, all following on a remotely
expressed common subject, or phrase containing one, like "We can:" or "We
can do the following:".
My dog has a number of friends: several humans and several other dogs that
he likes to meet and socialize with, although he has never had a
pack-relationship with them. CDB, his dog's second-best friend |
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mrf
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:15 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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Thanks for your reply, CDB. I would like to pursue this a bit.
| Quote: | Sentence fragment #3 is *grammatically* correct, as far as it goes.
Fragment #6 <<<<<<<is also, if you take "assist" to be an imperative
form;
alternatively, it could be an item in a list>>>>>>, all following on
a remotely
expressed common subject, or phrase containing one, like "We can:" or
"We
can do the following:".
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Not being the imperitive case you labeled as OK, are you of the opinion
fragment 6 would NOT be gramatically correct if, for example, it were
an item in a list that was of the form...
We can do the following:
- Help people deal with paperwork in relation to governmental agencies
- In concert with their friends, assist people in overcoming social
phobias
- Facilitate people meeting and adopting dogs
- along with their vets, assist those dogs in licking noses more
sedately
....
woof... mrf (friend to Jasmine, Dart, Israel, Bear and Padric). |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Question |
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"mrf" <mrf@cpes.com> wrote in message
news:1104448501.107198.26680@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Thanks for your reply, CDB. I would like to pursue this a bit.
Sentence fragment #3 is *grammatically* correct, as far as it goes.
Fragment #6 <<<<<<<is also, if you take "assist" to be an imperative
form;
alternatively, it could be an item in a list>>>>>>, all following on
a remotely
expressed common subject, or phrase containing one, like "We can:" or
"We
can do the following:".
Not being the imperitive case you labeled as OK, are you of the opinion
fragment 6 would NOT be gramatically correct if, for example, it were
an item in a list that was of the form...
We can do the following:
- Help people deal with paperwork in relation to governmental agencies
- In concert with their friends, assist people in overcoming social
phobias
- Facilitate people meeting and adopting dogs
- along with their vets, assist those dogs in licking noses more
sedately
...
woof... mrf (friend to Jasmine, Dart, Israel, Bear and Padric).
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That would be the old list-with-a-common-subject trick. Looks grammatically
OK to us.
Napoleon and his faithful monkey companion, CDB |
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