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Enrico il Pentolaio
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:01 am
Post subject: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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Hi all,
A couple of days ago, while reading "Robinson Crusoe" by Daniel Defoe, I
found this sentence:
"... I bought me a Negro slave and an European servant also;"
Of course I understood the meaning of the sentence, but I was surprised to
see that the author had put "an" instead of "a" before "European".
So I'm wondering whether in the early XVIII century it was common to write
that or it's just a misprint.
Can anyone help me?
Thank you in advance.
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"No victory comes without a price" (Desperate Housewives).
[My Skype nickname: enrico_il_pentolaio ]
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Lars Eighner
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:20 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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In our last episode,
<QFqbf.25781$65.815349@twister1.libero.it>,
the lovely and talented Enrico il Pentolaio
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | Hi all,
A couple of days ago, while reading "Robinson Crusoe" by Daniel Defoe, I
found this sentence:
"... I bought me a Negro slave and an European servant also;"
Of course I understood the meaning of the sentence, but I was surprised to
see that the author had put "an" instead of "a" before "European".
So I'm wondering whether in the early XVIII century it was common to write
that or it's just a misprint.
|
Maybe not common, but acceptable. At least since moveable type,
and perhaps before, an issue in English has been whether the
printed (written) language should follow the spoken language or
the other way around. Literary people in particular seem to
embrace the thought that the written language is the language.
We have had such nonsense as the "speak as you spell" movement
and we had "an hôtel" long after it bore any relation to
educated speech.
--
Lars Eighner usenet@larseighner.com http://www.larseighner.com/
"Writing is easy. All you do is stare at a blank sheet of paper until
drops of blood form on your forehead." --Gene Fowler |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:44 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:20:09 -0600, Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | We have had such nonsense as the "speak as you spell" movement
and we had "an hôtel" long after it bore any relation to
educated speech.
|
I see, but you only write "an hotel" if you mean the "h" as non-aspirated,
don't you?
Bye, FB
--
«"Plano su di lei come un paradiseo imbottito di Taurus... Faccio guizzare
la lingua come un pitone ubriaco". Prendo questo libro, lo butto nel
cestino.»
(Recensione di Antonio D'Orrico sul Corriere della Sera Magazine)
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Enrico il Pentolaio
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:32 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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"Lars Eighner" ha scritto nel messaggio
| Quote: | So I'm wondering whether in the early XVIII century it was common to
write
that or it's just a misprint.
Maybe not common, but acceptable.
|
I see.
| Quote: | At least since moveable type,
and perhaps before, an issue in English has been whether the
printed (written) language should follow the spoken language or
the other way around.
|
Just like in Italian.
If I'm not wrong, the first person in Italy who thought that every writer
should follow a "rigid" language and not the contemporary one was Pietro
Bembo (1470-1547), who considered Petrarca's (for poetry) and Boccaccio's
(for prose) language the best for literature and wrote "Prose della volgar
lingua", which would be taken in consideration for centuries by most of the
Italian writers.
Since in Italy there wasn't a whole country till 1860's, the pursuit of an
only written language was one of the few things literary people could do to
feel "Italian" and not divided into regional states, which were often
fighting against each other. That's why a lot of Italian authors chose to
follow Bembo's advice to write in a "standard" fiorentino(from Florence)
dialect and not in their regional dialects. For example in the early
nineteenth century Alessandro Manzoni, who was born in Lombardy, rewrote his
"Promessi Sposi" after going to Florence and learning how to "tuscanize" his
famous masterpiece. It goes without saying that Manzoni followed the
contemporary Tuscanian and not Boccaccio's.
Anyway, thank you a lot for your helpful answer!
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"No victory comes without a price" (Desperate Housewives).
[My Skype nickname: enrico_il_pentolaio ] |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:57 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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Enrico il Pentolaio <sira214TOGLIQUESTO@inwind.it> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi all,
A couple of days ago, while reading "Robinson Crusoe" by Daniel Defoe, I
found this sentence:
"... I bought me a Negro slave and an European servant also;"
Of course I understood the meaning of the sentence, but I was surprised to
see that the author had put "an" instead of "a" before "European".
So I'm wondering whether in the early XVIII century it was common to write
that or it's just a misprint.
Can anyone help me?
|
I suspect this means that in the 18th century, "European" was pronounced
(at least by some) in a Frenchified way, something like "urro" instead
of "yurro." But pronunciations of the day weren't recorded, so I don't
know how to verify this. Perhaps OED entries show "an Europe" and "an
European."
The n-before-a-vowel phenomenon goes way back, as seen in "mine eyes"
and the like.
--
Best - Donna Richoux |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:58 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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FB wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:20:09 -0600, Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
We have had such nonsense as the "speak as you spell" movement
and we had "an hôtel" long after it bore any relation to
educated speech.
I see, but you only write "an hotel" if you mean the "h" as non-aspirated,
don't you?
If the 'h' is silent? |
--
Why do sequels seem not to continue the story but instead retell the
original? I still want to see a real sequel to "Universal Soldier" where
the new girlfriend and the reanimated soldier who has to take a break
and recharge in a special recharge machine every few days, and might
melt if he gets too excited, learns to live within his limitations,
perhaps getting a job selling life insurance nine to five while starting
his own country western band as an evening outlet, finally taking the
time out in his life for romance and smelling the lovely flowers. Have
some guts Hollywood, turn a full out violent action movie into a woman
friendly romantic comedy sequel! |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:17 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:58:15 -0800, Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of
recirculation') wrote:
| Quote: | FB wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:20:09 -0600, Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
We have had such nonsense as the "speak as you spell" movement
and we had "an hôtel" long after it bore any relation to
educated speech.
I see, but you only write "an hotel" if you mean the "h" as non-aspirated,
don't you?
If the 'h' is silent?
|
Yes, whereas I guess [ju] in "European" has always been there.
Did I make some mistakes?
Bye, FB
--
"Observe, Lord Burghley: I am married: to England."
(Elizabeth) |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:42 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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FB wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:58:15 -0800, Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of
recirculation') wrote:
FB wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:20:09 -0600, Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
We have had such nonsense as the "speak as you spell" movement
and we had "an hôtel" long after it bore any relation to
educated speech.
I see, but you only write "an hotel" if you mean the "h" as non-aspirated,
don't you?
If the 'h' is silent?
Yes, whereas I guess [ju] in "European" has always been there.
Did I make some mistakes?
I just wondered if there was some other pronunciation for the 'h' other |
than the normal one and silence.
--
Why do sequels seem not to continue the story but instead retell the
original? I still want to see a real sequel to "Universal Soldier" where
the new girlfriend and the reanimated soldier who has to take a break
and recharge in a special recharge machine every few days, and might
melt if he gets too excited, learns to live within his limitations,
perhaps getting a job selling life insurance nine to five while starting
his own country western band as an evening outlet, finally taking the
time out in his life for romance and smelling the lovely flowers. Have
some guts Hollywood, turn a full out violent action movie into a woman
friendly romantic comedy sequel! |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:36 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') wrote:
| Quote: | FB wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:58:15 -0800, Bill Bonde ('by a commodius
vicus of recirculation') wrote:
FB wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:20:09 -0600, Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
We have had such nonsense as the "speak as you spell" movement
and we had "an hôtel" long after it bore any relation to
educated speech.
I see, but you only write "an hotel" if you mean the "h" as
non-aspirated, don't you?
If the 'h' is silent?
Yes, whereas I guess [ju] in "European" has always been there.
Did I make some mistakes?
I just wondered if there was some other pronunciation for the 'h'
other than the normal one and silence.
|
Only in H...ancock's Half Hour
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:28 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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Enrico il Pentolaio wrote:
| Quote: | follow Bembo's advice to write in a "standard" fiorentino(from Florence)
|
Going off the topic for a moment: in English the connection between
Florentine and Florence is fairly close, but how do "fiorentino" and
"Firenze" relate to each other?
--
Rob Bannister |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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John Dean wrote:
| Quote: |
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') wrote:
FB wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:58:15 -0800, Bill Bonde ('by a commodius
vicus of recirculation') wrote:
FB wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:20:09 -0600, Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
We have had such nonsense as the "speak as you spell" movement
and we had "an hôtel" long after it bore any relation to
educated speech.
I see, but you only write "an hotel" if you mean the "h" as
non-aspirated, don't you?
If the 'h' is silent?
Yes, whereas I guess [ju] in "European" has always been there.
Did I make some mistakes?
I just wondered if there was some other pronunciation for the 'h'
other than the normal one and silence.
Only in H...ancock's Half Hour
Except that you wouldn't put an 'an' in front of "Hancock" or "Half" |
although you would in front of "hour", but then the 'h' is silent in
"hour".
--
Why do sequels seem not to continue the story but instead retell the
original? I still want to see a real sequel to "Universal Soldier" where
the new girlfriend and the reanimated soldier who has to take a break
and recharge in a special recharge machine every few days, and might
melt if he gets too excited, learns to live within his limitations,
perhaps getting a job selling life insurance nine to five while starting
his own country western band as an evening outlet, finally taking the
time out in his life for romance and smelling the lovely flowers. Have
some guts Hollywood, turn a full out violent action movie into a woman
friendly romantic comedy sequel! |
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FB
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:24 pm
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:28:12 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
| Quote: | Enrico il Pentolaio wrote:
follow Bembo's advice to write in a "standard" fiorentino(from Florence)
Going off the topic for a moment: in English the connection between
Florentine and Florence is fairly close, but how do "fiorentino" and
"Firenze" relate to each other?
|
Italian, when it comes to writing, is less close to Latin than, say,
Spanish and French.
Florentia(m) [1] ==> Fiorenza [2] ==> Firenze [3]
Florentinu(m) [4] ==> Fiorentino [5]
Also flore(m) (acc. of "flos") ==> French "la fleure" (fem.); Spanish "la
flor" (fem.); Italian "il fiore" (masc.)
I hope I've made no mistakes.
Notes:
[1] [flO'rEntsja(m)]
[2] [fjO'rEntsa]
«Godi, Fiorenza, poi che se' sì grande
che per mare e per terra batti l'ali,
e per lo 'nferno tuo nome si spande!»
Dante Alighieri, "Divina Commedia", Inferno ("Hell"), XXVI
[3] [fi'rEntse]
[4] [flOren'tinu(m)]
[5] [fjOren'tinO]
Bye, FB
--
"Oh oh... Oh my God. My parents are having an affair."
(Gilmore Girls - 512) |
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Enrico il Pentolaio
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:31 pm
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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"Robert Bannister" ha scritto nel messaggio
| Quote: | follow Bembo's advice to write in a "standard" fiorentino(from Florence)
in English the connection between Florentine and Florence
is fairly close, but how do "fiorentino" and "Firenze" relate to each
other?
|
Firenze is the city, fiorentino is both the dialect spoken in Florence and a
person who was born in Firenze.
If I were from Firenze, I would be a fiorentino and I would speak
fiorentino.
Is that what you asked me?
Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
"No victory comes without a price" (Desperate Housewives).
[My Skype nickname: enrico_il_pentolaio ] |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:51 pm
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean wrote:
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') wrote:
FB wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:58:15 -0800, Bill Bonde ('by a commodius
vicus of recirculation') wrote:
FB wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:20:09 -0600, Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
We have had such nonsense as the "speak as you spell" movement
and we had "an hôtel" long after it bore any relation to
educated speech.
I see, but you only write "an hotel" if you mean the "h" as
non-aspirated, don't you?
If the 'h' is silent?
Yes, whereas I guess [ju] in "European" has always been there.
Did I make some mistakes?
I just wondered if there was some other pronunciation for the 'h'
other than the normal one and silence.
Only in H...ancock's Half Hour
Except that you wouldn't put an 'an' in front of "Hancock" or "Half"
although you would in front of "hour", but then the 'h' is silent in
"hour".
|
I'm guessing you never heard Anthony Aloysius pronounce the name of the
show.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:17 pm
Post subject: Re: "an European" from Robinson Crusoe |
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John Dean <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> spake thusly:
| Quote: | Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') wrote:
John Dean wrote:
Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation') wrote:
I just wondered if there was some other pronunciation for the 'h'
other than the normal one and silence.
Only in H...ancock's Half Hour
Except that you wouldn't put an 'an' in front of "Hancock" or "Half"
although you would in front of "hour", but then the 'h' is silent in
"hour".
I'm guessing you never heard Anthony Aloysius pronounce the name of the
show.
|
He was a but wobbly on his Christian names - sometimes it was
Aloysius but sometimes it was St John {pronounced, for the foreign
folk: "Sin-jun".
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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