| Author |
Message |
Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:24 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1h5m05q.bdmk5s1xebzweN%trio@euronet.nl...
| Quote: | Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote:
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1h5lvrd.7j51mkk5s5auN%trio@euronet.nl...
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children
and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher
are"?
The topic is "agreement." There's a pretty good
discussion
here,
although it's scatted over various screens:
Agreement: Subject-verb, Pronouns.
Singular/plurals.(Use
"Next" & links)
http://www.bartleby.com/68/40/240.html
I thank you for the reference, but I should rather have
the
answer instead of reading long articles which do not
refer
to the above question but only refer to the question in
general terms as I am looking especially for the very
sentences mentioned above.
I'm afraid that the links do not give the accurate answer
I
am looking for.
Thanks for letting me know. This one is more to the point:
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/intro_d.shtml#Groupnounssingularorplura
lcompanyisvcompanyare
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Thank you very much!
--
Arne H.Wilstrup
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote:
| Quote: | "Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:11ms1akk95jp015@corp.supernews.com...
The situation is exactly analogous, if you're interested
in the
"groupness" of the men, say "is," if you're focused on the
individuals in the group, say "are."
This is my opinion, too - but my university professor does
not agree. I argued if you can say "family is" or "familly
are" it ought to be possible to say "a group of men is
sitting" or " a group of men are sitting" - but she said
no - because it is a totally different situation.
|
On one of those pages I gave you from Bartleby's "The Columbia Guide to
Standard American English" that you found too difficult to read through,
they discuss "The Rule of Proximity" -- the very strong tendency of
English speakers to make the verb agree with the noun closest to it, not
the true subject. They say it's a powerful force that is common in
speech but should be edited out in careful writing.
| Quote: |
And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..."
as the sentence with "or" demands that you take the
latest noun in consideration, but how about
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher
are"?
The children and teacher _are_ sitting, that's always a
group.
Well, here is again a disagreement, as my professor says
that when you have a sentence divided by "or" it is the
latter noun you are referring to -i.e. the children or the
teacher is... should be correctly.
|
However, the answer Jeffrey just gave you says "and".
We've argued about the "plural OR singular" case in this group before.
Your teacher's rule is as good as any; I don't think you'll find any
universal one, and it's not very common, anyway. If the second part
feels parenthetical, though, it tends not to control the verb.
The children or the teacher decorate the classroom.
The children (or the teacher) decorate the classroom.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:11 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> spake thusly:
| Quote: | the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> spake thusly:
The topic is "agreement."
See, that's an example which makes it extraordinarily difficult for
me to accept the convention of always putting punctuation inside
quotes. It implies that the OP should search for some topic named
"agreement.".
In your world, yes. Not in mine.
|
Of course, but I find it difficult to understand how the convention
arose.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
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TakenEvent
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:16 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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"Arne H. Wilstrup" <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote in message
news:436de8bb$0$84029$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
| Quote: |
You can either say "the family is" or "the family are"
according to how you consider the familiy: as a group of
people or as individual members of the group.
|
"Family" is singular.
The whole family is going to be there.
Many families are going to be there.
| Quote: |
But how about : a group of men? is this "a group of men are
sitting" or is it "a group of men is sitting "according to
the situation above (family)?
|
The group is...
The groups are...
| Quote: |
And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..." as
the sentence with "or" demands that you take the latest noun
in consideration, but how about
|
The children are...
The teacher is...
| Quote: |
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher are"?
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Are, are, are. |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1h5m2ox.1ucs6f01wivhzvN%trio@euronet.nl...
| Quote: | Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:11ms1akk95jp015@corp.supernews.com...
The situation is exactly analogous, if you're
interested
in the
"groupness" of the men, say "is," if you're focused on
the
individuals in the group, say "are."
This is my opinion, too - but my university professor
does
not agree. I argued if you can say "family is" or
"familly
are" it ought to be possible to say "a group of men is
sitting" or " a group of men are sitting" - but she said
no - because it is a totally different situation.
On one of those pages I gave you from Bartleby's "The
Columbia Guide to
Standard American English" that you found too difficult to
read through,
they discuss "The Rule of Proximity" -- the very strong
tendency of
English speakers to make the verb agree with the noun
closest to it, not
the true subject. They say it's a powerful force that is
common in
speech but should be edited out in careful writing.
We've argued about the "plural OR singular" case in this
group before.
Your teacher's rule is as good as any; I don't think
you'll find any
universal one, and it's not very common, anyway. If the
second part
feels parenthetical, though, it tends not to control the
verb.
The children or the teacher decorate the classroom.
|
Here I would say The children or the teacher decorates the
classroom.
If I said "Law and order has become a key problem" it seems
to be a correct way of writing the sentence even if there
are two nouns (law and order), as the singular is found when
the coordinated noun phrases refer to one thing or one
concept.
If I write; "Danish bacon and egss makes a good solid
English breakfast" or "Bed and breakfast costs £15 a night"
it seem to follow this rule mentioned above.
A peculiar thing here is, that you seem to have: "the
students as well as the teacher were enjoying the food", but
you write: "the baby as well as the mother is in fine form"
even there are two nouns here as well indicating plural.
And a sentence like: "Either your brakes or your eyesight is
at fault" also seems to be correct.
I must here emphasize that I am asking about English English
(BrE) and not American English (AmE) - even if the two
varieties of English have almost the same grammar.  and
even if it is said that in AmE collective nouns normally
appear with a singular verb, I think I shall be better of
with the BrE way of writing - no offence intended, of
course!
But your answere gave me the opportunity to find out where
in my grammars I should look, and thank you for that.
--
Arne H.Wilstrup |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:48 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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"TakenEvent" <lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> skrev i en
meddelelse news:b7pbf.9848$7s1.4632@fe04.lga...
| Quote: |
"Arne H. Wilstrup" <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote in
message
news:436de8bb$0$84029$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
You can either say "the family is" or "the family are"
according to how you consider the familiy: as a group of
people or as individual members of the group.
"Family" is singular.
The whole family is going to be there.
Many families are going to be there.
|
I must say that I strongly disagree - acording to my grammar
and what I have been told in this group "family" can both be
considered as a group and as individuals. My grammar says
here:
"Collective nouns are countable nouns like administration,
army, audience, class, committee, company,crew, family,
firm, government, group, jury, management, party,press,
public,staff and team. The singular form of these nouns
refers to a group of people. When collective nouns in the
singular functions as subject, they can be accompanied
either by
A. a singular verb, a personal pronoun or determiner like it
and its and the relative pronoun which, which all emphaxize
the impersonal unit referred to by the noun:
"My company sells farm machinery. The committee controls
council spending. Her family has been tracked back to
1300... etc"
B. by a plural verb, personal pronouns and determiners like
they, them, their(s) and relatives like who, whom, which al
emphasize the individuals referred to by the noun:
"The company are sending me on a management course". A group
of us are going up to London for the day. My family are all
early risers" The Government are planning new tax
increases". The school's staff are excellent-The team
practise among themselves.
When collective nouns are determined by singular determiners
(a/an, each, either, every, etc) singular verbs and pronouns
are more common, but plural verbs and pronouns are also
found. See example above).
| Quote: |
But how about : a group of men? is this "a group of men
are
sitting" or is it "a group of men is sitting "according
to
the situation above (family)?
The group is...
The groups are...
|
No, not necessary - "A group of us are going up to London
for the day."
| Quote: |
And moreover: you say The children or the teacher is ..."
as
the sentence with "or" demands that you take the latest
noun
in consideration, but how about
The children are...
The teacher is...
the children and the teacher -- is this "the children and
the teacher is" or is it "the children and the teacher
are"?
Are, are, are.
|
I am sorry to say that I must disagree here for the time
being, cf. the above mentioned examples. But thank you for
your contribution.
--
Arne H.Wilstrup |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
|
|
On 06 Nov 2005, TakenEvent wrote
| Quote: | "Arne H. Wilstrup" <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> wrote in
message news:436de8bb$0$84029$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
You can either say "the family is" or "the family are"
according to how you consider the familiy: as a group of
people or as individual members of the group.
"Family" is singular.
The whole family is going to be there.
Many families are going to be there.
|
That's a regional thing. What you say holds true in NAmerEng but
not in BrEng, where collective nouns regularly attract a plural
verb.
"The cabinet have discussed this point", "Chelsea are unbeatable",
and "the family are" are perfectly normal and standard
constructions in both formal and informal BrEng.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:12 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
|
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"Harvey Van Sickle" <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:Xns9706A239DD450whhvans@62.253.170.163...
| Quote: | That's a regional thing. What you say holds true in
NAmerEng but
not in BrEng, where collective nouns regularly attract a
plural
verb.
|
exactly.
| Quote: |
"The cabinet have discussed this point", "Chelsea are
unbeatable",
and "the family are" are perfectly normal and standard
constructions in both formal and informal BrEng.
|
yes! And I wrote earlier in this thread that I was referring
to British English. Thank you for the precision. :-)
But I still don't know why there is this difference. 
--
Arne H.Wilstrup |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> spake thusly:
the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> spake thusly:
The topic is "agreement."
See, that's an example which makes it extraordinarily difficult for
me to accept the convention of always putting punctuation inside
quotes. It implies that the OP should search for some topic named
"agreement.".
In your world, yes. Not in mine.
Of course, but I find it difficult to understand how the convention
arose.
|
The traditional explanation about printers' type is told in the FAQ:
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxvsxxxx.html
It's not necessarily true, and discussions in the past have tried to
poke holes in it, but it's the same story I heard in my youth.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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the Omrud
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:17 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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|
Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> spake thusly:
| Quote: |
"Harvey Van Sickle" <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:Xns9706A239DD450whhvans@62.253.170.163...
That's a regional thing. What you say holds true in
NAmerEng but
not in BrEng, where collective nouns regularly attract a
plural
verb.
exactly.
"The cabinet have discussed this point", "Chelsea are
unbeatable",
and "the family are" are perfectly normal and standard
constructions in both formal and informal BrEng.
yes! And I wrote earlier in this thread that I was referring
to British English. Thank you for the precision. :-)
But I still don't know why there is this difference.
|
The singular is used when the group is/are acting as a single body.
For example, "The BBC is publishing its report".
The plural is used when the group is/are acting as a set of
individuals who happen to be doing the same thing. For example, "My
family are travelling to a wedding tomorrow." This implies that they
are travelling separately. If I say "My family is travelling to a
wedding tomorrow" then I am implying that we are all travelling
together.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:18 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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|
[ ... ]
| Quote: | A peculiar thing here is, that you seem to have: "the
students as well as the teacher were enjoying the food", but
you write: "the baby as well as the mother is in fine form"
even there are two nouns here as well indicating plural.
|
"As well as", in traditional English grammar, is a compound
preposition, not a conjunction, and the phrase containing those words
is parenthetical, so the number of the verb is supposed to be
unaffected by whatever follows those words. In your examples the
number of the verb comes from the subject -- and the subject does not
include the "as well as ..." phrase. In your first example,
"students" is the subject, so the verb is plural. In the second,
"baby" is the subject, so the verb is singular.
As is true of much contemporary English usage, there is an increasing
tendency to treat "as well as" as a conjunction. So you will see "The
baby as well as the mother are in fine form." I consider this an
error, but it is happening often enough that it will probably become
accepted usage. Meanwhile, you are probably best advised to follow
the traditional course and ignore the "as well as" phrase when
determining the number of the verb.
| Quote: | And a sentence like: "Either your brakes or your eyesight is
at fault" also seems to be correct.
|
The important thing here is the "or". Reversing the subject would
result in "Either your eyesight or your brakes are at fault." Such
sentences are awkward, and many careful authors rewrite them. E.g.,
"You should blame either your brakes or your eyesight."
--
Bob Lieblich
I blame Tootsie |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:23 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
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|
On 06 Nov 2005, Arne H. Wilstrup wrote
| Quote: |
"Harvey Van Sickle" <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> skrev i en
meddelelse news:Xns9706A239DD450whhvans@62.253.170.163...
That's a regional thing. What you say holds true in
NAmerEng but
not in BrEng, where collective nouns regularly attract a
plural
verb.
exactly.
"The cabinet have discussed this point", "Chelsea are
unbeatable",
and "the family are" are perfectly normal and standard
constructions in both formal and informal BrEng.
yes! And I wrote earlier in this thread that I was referring
to British English. Thank you for the precision. :-)
But I still don't know why there is this difference.
|
I've not really been following the thread closely, but if you mean
"why does a collective noun/group sometime attract a singular and
sometimes a plural verb?", it has to do with with whether the
members of the group are being considered as a unit or as
individuals. My feeling, though, is that the plural appears much
more often than the singular.
(If you mean "why is there a pondial difference?" -- that is, why
does NAmer restrict collective nouns to a singular verb, while
BrEng allows plural -- well, I just look at it as one of the
anomalies that happens when a language develops different
conventions in different places.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Arne H. Wilstrup
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:27 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
|
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"the Omrud" <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1dd83db4c30c18e398a1f8@news.ntlworld.com...
| Quote: | But I still don't know why there is this difference.
:-(
The singular is used when the group is/are acting as a
single body.
For example, "The BBC is publishing its report".
The plural is used when the group is/are acting as a set
of
individuals who happen to be doing the same thing. For
example, "My
family are travelling to a wedding tomorrow." This
implies that they
are travelling separately. If I say "My family is
travelling to a
wedding tomorrow" then I am implying that we are all
travelling
together.
|
That I do understand - but what I do not understand is a
sentence like:
The children or the teacher IS at an outing (or something
like that) -here the conjunktion "or" seems to divide the
plural "children" and the singular "the teacher" so it is
the latter who takes the verb en present tense 3rd person
singular, even if we talk about more persons.
But if I writes: the children and the teacher ...it is
usually "the children and the children are...
as the English consider the children and the teacher as a
collective noun and as a whole group of individuals.
--
Arne H.Wilstrup |
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the Omrud
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:32 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
|
|
Arne H. Wilstrup <detfaarduejatvide@invalid.dk> spake thusly:
| Quote: |
"the Omrud" <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:MPG.1dd83db4c30c18e398a1f8@news.ntlworld.com...
But I still don't know why there is this difference.
:-(
The singular is used when the group is/are acting as a
single body.
For example, "The BBC is publishing its report".
The plural is used when the group is/are acting as a set
of individuals who happen to be doing the same thing. For
example, "My family are travelling to a wedding tomorrow." This
implies that they are travelling separately. If I say "My family is
travelling to a wedding tomorrow" then I am implying that we are all
travelling together.
That I do understand - but what I do not understand is a
sentence like:
The children or the teacher IS at an outing (or something
like that) -here the conjunktion "or" seems to divide the
plural "children" and the singular "the teacher" so it is
the latter who takes the verb en present tense 3rd person
singular, even if we talk about more persons.
|
I agree with you (that it should be plural) so I can't explain why
anybody would tell you to use the singular, but it's an ugly
construction and best reworded.
| Quote: | But if I writes: the children and the teacher ...it is
usually "the children and the children are...
as the English consider the children and the teacher as a
collective noun and as a whole group of individuals.
|
This is unarguable as "the children and the teacher" is definitely
plural.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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The Grammer Genious
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:32 pm
Post subject: Re: a "group question" |
|
|
Lars Eighner <usenet@larseighner.com> wrote
< <...> Prescriptivists will almost
| Quote: | always be happy if you follow the number of their grammatical
subject, which is singular.
|
Absolutely. That's why I say "A lot of people doesn't agree with you," and
"A hundred birds is flying overhead," because the definite article shows
that "lot" and "hundred" are unequivocally singular. |
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