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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:01 am
Post subject: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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In the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise I expressed the opinion
that the "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling. (In French, this amounts
to a sort of grammar check as well, since so many words can be
pronounced the same but are spelled differently to show different
tenses or to show gender.)
I'm not interested in examples of dictation when studying shorthand.
Nothing like the dictée occurred in my schools when I was young. The
spelling bee served the same function, although we did them only
rarely.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:01 am
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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Raymond Wise:
| Quote: | So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling...
|
Well, we had that in French class. But not in any sort of English class
I was in, if that's what you're asking about. Not in Latin class either.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Domine, defende nos
msb@vex.net | Contra hos motores bos!" -- A. D. Godley |
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Lars Eighner
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:01 am
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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In our last episode,
<1131340694.907758.124100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Raymond S. Wise
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | Nothing like the dictée occurred in my schools when I was young. The
spelling bee served the same function, although we did them only
rarely.
|
This form of examination was unknown in Houston public schools
in the 50s and 60s. Spelling was tested by the instructor
pronouncing single words, usually followed by a sentence with
the word in context, but the examinees were only supposed to
write the single words. Spelling bees were rare, and usually
were only exercises for the written examinations. It would have
been difficult to grade spelling bees, as I suppose anyone who
missed his first word would get a zero even if he knew all the
rest of the words. Of course spelling was a factor in the
grading of compositions. Some instructors had a hard and fast
rule that a misspelling was two points off (of one hundred),
with the result that a negative score was possible in an essay
of any size. I am afraid the lesson was not to attempt difficult
words and not to write very much.
--
Lars Eighner usenet@larseighner.com http://www.larseighner.com/
There is not enough magic in a bloodline to forge an instant, irrevocable bond.
--James Earl Jones
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:26 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | In the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise I expressed the opinion
that the "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling. (In French, this amounts
to a sort of grammar check as well, since so many words can be
pronounced the same but are spelled differently to show different
tenses or to show gender.)
I'm not interested in examples of dictation when studying shorthand.
Nothing like the dictée occurred in my schools when I was young. The
spelling bee served the same function, although we did them only
rarely.
|
We certainly had this when studying French because that is how I know
the word. I have a vague memory of a similar process in primary school
English but it was known as "comprehension" and, after writing down the
dictated passage, we were asked questions about the content.
Reflecting on this process, I am now struggling to remember text books.
We didn't have any at primary school - we copied down material from the
blackboard. At secondary school we certainly had them for Maths and
Latin but I can't remember any others. I wonder when textbooks became
standard in all subjects?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:52 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | In the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise I expressed the opinion
that the "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling. (In French, this amounts
to a sort of grammar check as well, since so many words can be
pronounced the same but are spelled differently to show different
tenses or to show gender.)
I'm not interested in examples of dictation when studying shorthand.
Nothing like the dictée occurred in my schools when I was young. The
spelling bee served the same function, although we did them only
rarely.
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We had that -- we just called her "teacher". The word really is
"dictator", though(may as well reconnote it).
~Iain |
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Philip Eden
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:29 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1131340694.907758.124100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
In the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise I expressed the opinion
that the "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling. (In French, this amounts
to a sort of grammar check as well, since so many words can be
pronounced the same but are spelled differently to show different
tenses or to show gender.)
Here (Beds, UK) we certainly had these exercises in French
and, less frequently, in German at school in the late-1960s. They
actually formed part of the GCE O-Level examinations in those
subjects. But not in English.
About ten or twelve years ago the BBC Radio 4 programme
"Word of Mouth" sang the praises of the "dictée" and offered its
listeners an English-language version. Tens of thousands took
part. I probably have my entry lying around somewhere (as I
faxed it rather than snail-mailed it) and I remember being
inordinately pleased that I was able to spell "broccoli". It did,
however, make me realise that my English was not quite as
good as I thought it was.
Philip Eden |
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Philip Eden
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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"Laura F. Spira" <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
Reflecting on this process, I am now struggling to remember text books. We
didn't have any at primary school - we copied down material from the
blackboard. At secondary school we certainly had them for Maths and Latin
but I can't remember any others. I wonder when textbooks became standard
in all subjects?
We certainly did. Some were handed out and signed for at the |
beginning of term, but others, in short supply, were handed out
during each lesson, sometimes shared between two. For English
we used a series of books by Ronald Ridout who had taught at
our school in an earlier decade. Books were usually referred to
by the author's name: we'd be instructed, for instance, to "Turn
to Ridout page 37."
Philip Eden |
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JF
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:35 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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X-No-Archive: yes
In message <436f2c83$0$358$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>, Philip Eden
<philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom@?.?.invalid> writes
| Quote: | So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling.
|
I certainly had 'dictation' twice a bloody week! But I was educated in
cash-strapped, post-war England and therefore I had a poor education. We
couldn't afford teachers who included punctuation. We had to rely on
pauses etc. Luckily this barbaric, medieval practice is frowned on now
that England is a rich country.
I know a girl who has just secured three English A levels. Three!
English lit, English crit, and English comp. I got only one A level half
a century ago because all three subjects were rolled into one. Paper for
pass certificates was rationed.
--
James Follett |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> spake thusly:
| Quote: | Raymond Wise:
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling...
Well, we had that in French class. But not in any sort of English class
I was in, if that's what you're asking about. Not in Latin class either.
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Same here. We had it in French lessons at high school. I don't
remember having it in English lessons.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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Arcadian Rises
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:46 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | In the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise I expressed the opinion
that the "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling. (In French, this amounts
to a sort of grammar check as well, since so many words can be
pronounced the same but are spelled differently to show different
tenses or to show gender.)
I'm not interested in examples of dictation when studying shorthand.
Nothing like the dictée occurred in my schools when I was young. The
spelling bee served the same function, although we did them only
rarely.
|
An adjacent question:
is "dictee" also the term used or musical dictation? i.e.when the
teacher plays or sings a tune and the class takes it down on that
special music papers? |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:56 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1131340694.907758.124100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | . . . "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
|
English Dictation was normal in junior classes (age 9 to 10) of
the (private) school I attended in London in the 1940s, and
French Dictee in all classes (age 9 to 14.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Frances Kemmish
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:56 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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Laura F. Spira wrote:
| Quote: | Reflecting on this process, I am now struggling to remember text books.
We didn't have any at primary school - we copied down material from the
blackboard. At secondary school we certainly had them for Maths and
Latin but I can't remember any others. I wonder when textbooks became
standard in all subjects?
|
When I was in the last year of primary school (which would have been
1959-60), we had a textbook, but I can't remember the subject. It was an
American book, and beautifully produced, with shiny pages, and little
cartoons in the margins. As you can see, it made quite an impression.
From Grammar school, I can remember the Latin text-books, starting with
"Civis Romanus", (which was very good as a table tennis bat) and going
on to Bradley's Arnold I think it was really Mountford's Bradley's
Arnold). I know we had Maths books, but I don't remember much about them.
We didn't have textbooks for English, just copies of novels and poetry
we had to read. I don't remember textooks in other subjects; although
there were some books that were issued to us as a class, they were not
books written specifically as school textbooks. The only title I
remember is G.R Elton's book "England Under the Tudors", which we used
in history class, but I think that may have been for A-Level.
Fran |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:54 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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"Arcadian Rises" <Arcadianrises@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1131367593.011713.132000@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | In the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise I expressed the opinion
that the "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if
you
had something like the French dictée when you were young. Basically,
the dictée is having a class of students take down dictation in
longhand in order to check students' spelling. (In French, this
amounts
to a sort of grammar check as well, since so many words can be
pronounced the same but are spelled differently to show different
tenses or to show gender.)
I'm not interested in examples of dictation when studying shorthand.
Nothing like the dictée occurred in my schools when I was young. The
spelling bee served the same function, although we did them only
rarely.
Arcadian Rises: |
"An adjacent question:
is "dictee" also the term used or musical dictation? i.e.when the
teacher plays or sings a tune and the class takes it down on that
special music papers?"
I can recall doing exercises like that. Sometimes one would go along
merrily notating a melody, sharps and flats, half and whole notes, etc.
and get marked down for not indicating the clef.
As for "dictée", I recall tests or exercises in elementary school which
may have been some form of IQ or placement test. This would have been
during or just after WWII. We wrote numbers down a page. I don't recall
whether the page was lined, but I think it wasn't. As we were given
questions, we wrote our answers and then folded the reply under. This
not only prevented copying by our neighbors, but also prevented second
thoughts by the examiné(e). I think the questions involved facts,
numbers and spelling or "fill in the blank" words for grammar. I think
now that it must have been hell for the teacher to correct, what with #2
pencils and sweaty little hands.
These were not routine exercises. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:17 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | In the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise I expressed the opinion
that the "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if
you had something like the French dictée when you were young.
Basically, the dictée is having a class of students take down
dictation in longhand in order to check students' spelling.
|
I remember dictation in English as a regular exercise in the UK in the
50s. Additionally, we had dictation in language classes - notably French
and German.
When my wife was teaching in the 80s, she occasionally used dictation as
a technique to test and / or improve her pupils' spelling.
Unwise to generalise about UK education unless you actually know
something about it.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:37 pm
Post subject: Re: An English equivalent to the French 'dictee'? |
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Laura F. Spira wrote:
| Quote: | Raymond S. Wise wrote:
In the newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise I expressed the opinion
that the "dictée" is unknown in the US, and that it was probably
unknown in Great Britain as well. Someone replied that when he was
young, he had taken dictation in class. This surprised me.
So, my question for everyone, Americans, British, and others, is if
you had something like the French dictée when you were young.
Basically, the dictée is having a class of students take down
dictation in longhand in order to check students' spelling. (In
French, this amounts to a sort of grammar check as well, since so
many words can be pronounced the same but are spelled differently to
show different tenses or to show gender.)
I'm not interested in examples of dictation when studying shorthand.
Nothing like the dictée occurred in my schools when I was young. The
spelling bee served the same function, although we did them only
rarely.
We certainly had this when studying French because that is how I know
the word. I have a vague memory of a similar process in primary school
English but it was known as "comprehension" and, after writing down
the dictated passage, we were asked questions about the content.
|
I remember comprehension as a test of understanding of a written
passage.
| Quote: |
Reflecting on this process, I am now struggling to remember text
books. We didn't have any at primary school - we copied down material
from the blackboard. At secondary school we certainly had them for
Maths and Latin but I can't remember any others. I wonder when
textbooks became standard in all subjects?
|
I remember them in secondary education (mid fifities to mid sixties) for
pretty much all subjects. I remember a history text book because it had
diagrams of the disposition of forces in Civil War battles. In fact, I
remember a history text book in primary school which had pictures of
Ancient Britons in coracles and stuff. At secondary school there were
several text books for English and there were books absolutely essential
to learning languages (French & German on my side of the school, Latin
and Greek on the other). I recollect the German books were still using
Fraktur which made the whole thing, IMNSHO, more complicated than it
need have been. Like you, we had them for maths and we had them for
physics and chemistry too. Providing and maintaining brown paper covers
for your custodianship of any given text book was required.
Since we had a pretty bright bunch of Masters at Grammar School, it was
not uncommon to find ourselves using a text book written by the Master
teaching us. Which ended most would be distractions on the lines of "But
what exactly does he mean here Sir?" in record time.
We kept our stock of text books in our form room desk and had to plan
ahead at break times as to which books to pack in the satchel / brief
case for use until the next opportunity to touch base. Further
complicated in my case because I was a last minute arrival in the
morning and so had to stuff my bag with the morning's requirements on
the previous afternoon. Funnily enough, I still have panic dreams
occasionally about not having the right books with me. I'll probably
have another tonight now.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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