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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: | In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"?
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In no sense, unless perhaps you think of a patty melt as a hamburger.
Has anyone seen the Sprint (?) walkie-talkie commercial which takes place
in something like a nuclear power plant, with the two guys arguing over
what a BLT should be called? It reminded me of AUE. (HIMTA?)
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R J Valentine
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On 8 Nov 2005 09:39:27 -0800 R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote:
} Bob Cunningham filted:
}>
}>In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"? How
}>many Americans when asked to name all the sandwiches they
}>can think of would think to include hamburgers? I don't
}>think I would. To me a sandwich is two slices of bread with
}>something in between. A split hamburger bun is not two
}>slices of bread.
}
} It's a damn sight more two slices of bread than is a pita, and nobody seems to
} deny that a "pita sandwich" is just that....r
It's a little more two slices of bread than a kaiser roll and just about
exactly as two slices of bread as what Arby's offers with their Big
Montana [= NeoArbE "large"]. And ain't they sandwiches?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@theWorld.com> |
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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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Default User wrote:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham wrote:
In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"? How
many Americans when asked to name all the sandwiches they
can think of would think to include hamburgers? I don't
think I would. To me a sandwich is two slices of bread with
something in between. A split hamburger bun is not two
slices of bread.
So sliced ham and Swiss cheese on a split Kaiser roll wouldn't be a
sandwich to you? It is to me.
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I think it's the hamburger -- the meat itself -- that prevents a hamburger
from being a sandwich. A hamburger patty differs substantially from
normative sandwich fillings or meats in both structure and function.
Take a hamburger bun and put peanut butter on the inside of one half
and jelly on the inside of the other half, and put them together, and you
have a sandwich.
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On 7 Nov 2005 12:27:11 -0800, "jerry_friedman@yahoo.com"
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> said:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham wrote:
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:31:47 +0000, Charles Riggs
chriggs@éircom.net> said:
[...]
How about this? We have five fingers on each hand, but
the thumb by itself is not called a finger.
That's an interesting point. Can you think of an analogous
case? A discrete set comprising N "x"es where one of the
"x"es is not called an "x"? I've tried, but without
thinking of one so far.
There are a million of them. In American English, vehicles comprise
cars, trucks, vans, buses, SUVs, and maybe motorcycles and ATVs, but
only SUVs (and ATVs) are called vehicles.
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How confident are you that that is true? My impression is
that a well-trained police officer will never say "car" when
"vehicle" will do as well.
| Quote: | I hesitate to mention this, but we've had a lot of talking at
cross-purposes in this group because sandwiches include
hamburgers, but many Americans wouldn't call a hamburger
a sandwich.
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In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"? How
many Americans when asked to name all the sandwiches they
can think of would think to include hamburgers? I don't
think I would. To me a sandwich is two slices of bread with
something in between. A split hamburger bun is not two
slices of bread. |
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K. Edgcombe
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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In article <Xns9704E95DFC5E8whhvans@80.5.182.99>,
Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Haven't we just done this -- at great length? I seem to recall
that there's a pondian difference as to whether one starts counting
with the thumb or index finger as "one".
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No, that's the difference between pianists and violinists.
Katy |
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JF
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:33 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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In message <oil1n1d7mvjmbit4uqvjishaav2jnjlkq4@4ax.com>, Bob Cunningham
<exw6sxq@earthlink.net> writes
| Quote: | In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"? How
many Americans when asked to name all the sandwiches they
can think of would think to include hamburgers? I don't
think I would. To me a sandwich is two slices of bread with
something in between. A split hamburger bun is not two
slices of bread.
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You're on a roll, Bob. A split bap isn't a sandwich. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:39 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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Bob Cunningham filted:
| Quote: |
In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"? How
many Americans when asked to name all the sandwiches they
can think of would think to include hamburgers? I don't
think I would. To me a sandwich is two slices of bread with
something in between. A split hamburger bun is not two
slices of bread.
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It's a damn sight more two slices of bread than is a pita, and nobody seems to
deny that a "pita sandwich" is just that....r |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:11 am
Post subject: "bap" and "bun" [was: Re: Is a thumb a finger?] |
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On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:33:02 +0000, JF
<jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk> said:
| Quote: | In message <oil1n1d7mvjmbit4uqvjishaav2jnjlkq4@4ax.com>, Bob Cunningham
exw6sxq@earthlink.net> writes
In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"? How
many Americans when asked to name all the sandwiches they
can think of would think to include hamburgers? I don't
think I would. To me a sandwich is two slices of bread with
something in between. A split hamburger bun is not two
slices of bread.
You're on a roll, Bob. A split bap isn't a sandwich.
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When I redd "bap", I thought it surely must be a typo. To
my surprise, the _New Shorter Oxford_ (_NSOED_) says it's "a
large soft bread roll".
Interesting to see, while _NSOED_ doesn't give it any usage
tag, the _Merriam-Webster 11th Collegiate_ says "chiefly
Scotland : a small loaf or roll of bread".
And the _Oxford English Dictionary_ says of "bap"
A small loaf or ‘roll’ of bakers' bread, made of
various sizes and shapes in different parts of
Scotland.
Is it really mostly Scottish, or is it in general use in the
UK?
About "bun", _NSOED_ says it usually refers to some sort of
sweet cake in England and to a rich cake in Scotland, but
In some places, as in the north of Ireland, it means a
round loaf of ordinary bread.
So that seems likely to be where our meaning of "bun" is
derived from. |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:19 am
Post subject: Re: "bap" and "bun" [was: Re: Is a thumb a finger?] |
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On 08 Nov 2005, Bob Cunningham wrote
-snip-
| Quote: | You're on a roll, Bob. A split bap isn't a sandwich.
When I redd "bap", I thought it surely must be a typo. To
my surprise, the _New Shorter Oxford_ (_NSOED_) says it's "a
large soft bread roll".
Interesting to see, while _NSOED_ doesn't give it any usage
tag, the _Merriam-Webster 11th Collegiate_ says "chiefly
Scotland : a small loaf or roll of bread".
And the _Oxford English Dictionary_ says of "bap"
A small loaf or ‘roll’ of bakers' bread, made of
various sizes and shapes in different parts of
Scotland.
Is it really mostly Scottish, or is it in general use in the
UK?
|
Very much general UK use, not just Scottish.
A "bun" tends to imply something sweet (like a Chelsea bun or a
cream-filled confection).
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On 8 Nov 2005 09:39:27 -0800, R H Draney
<dadoctah@spamcop.net> said:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham filted:
In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"? How
many Americans when asked to name all the sandwiches they
can think of would think to include hamburgers? I don't
think I would. To me a sandwich is two slices of bread with
something in between. A split hamburger bun is not two
slices of bread.
It's a damn sight more two slices of bread than is a pita, and nobody seems to
deny that a "pita sandwich" is just that....r
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Nobody asked me. |
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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:30 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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JF wrote:
| Quote: | X-No-Archive: yes
In message <dkr2g8$ufh$1@news.wss.yale.edu>, Salvatore Volatile
me@privacy.net> writes
I think it's the hamburger -- the meat itself -- that prevents a hamburger
from being a sandwich.
The pattie has nothing to with it. It's the lack of two slices of bread,
or a single folded slice, that determines that it's not a sandwich.
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You talking baps or burgers? If hamburgers, define "bread" and "slice".
I think a hamburger bun is enough like bread (and enough like two slices
of bread, as used in a normative sandwich) for that to not be what
distinguishes hamburgers from sandwiches.
| Quote: | A hamburger patty differs substantially from
normative sandwich fillings or meats in both structure and function.
Take a hamburger bun and put peanut butter on the inside of one half
and jelly on the inside of the other half, and put them together, and you
have a sandwich.
No matter how exotic or disgusting the contents of a bap are, it's not a
sandwich.
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I don't know from baps so I can't say. Check with Coop. |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:39 am
Post subject: Re: "bap" and "bun" [was: Re: Is a thumb a finger?] |
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Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> spake thusly:
| Quote: | On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:33:02 +0000, JF
jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk> said:
In message <oil1n1d7mvjmbit4uqvjishaav2jnjlkq4@4ax.com>, Bob Cunningham
exw6sxq@earthlink.net> writes
In what sense does "sandwiches" include "hamburgers"? How
many Americans when asked to name all the sandwiches they
can think of would think to include hamburgers? I don't
think I would. To me a sandwich is two slices of bread with
something in between. A split hamburger bun is not two
slices of bread.
You're on a roll, Bob. A split bap isn't a sandwich.
When I redd "bap", I thought it surely must be a typo. To
my surprise, the _New Shorter Oxford_ (_NSOED_) says it's "a
large soft bread roll".
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It was very early in my AUE life that I explained my theory that you
can place a Brit (geographically and to a lesser extent socially) by
the name he gives to the round bread product into which is placed a
hamburger, and that the rest of his origins can be ascertained by a
careful study of the names he gives to other bakery items.
One day I should codify this knowledge.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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TsuiDF
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:05 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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JF wrote:
| Quote: |
You're on a roll, Bob. A split bap isn't a sandwich.
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Only too true. I think of sandwiches as the triangular kind (which are
always worst when advertised as 'fresh cut'), but baps usually contain
-- bacon?
Some data points for David's codification: my train-driving ex-partner
(born Wakefield, lived Buxton) definitely used 'bap' -- and ate them
quite often. My mother (born Cardiff, raised Cumbria and Lancashire,
now near Seattle) would understand it and might -- in a very unguarded
moment -- use it, but I suspect she'd probably deny it. I (born
Lancashire, grew up New England, adult life in Asia until now) would
use it -- but only when craving cholesterol which would be contained in
said bap.
And the South Beach diet can just go to hell now, really... (not that
the absence of carbohydrates is making me tetchy, you understand)
cheers,
Stephanie
in Brussels |
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TsuiDF
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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R H Draney wrote:
| Quote: | I can't stop running through other examples...you'd hang up a poster with "big
finger tacks"...websites would tell you to click on the "big fingernails" to see
the complete picture...and transients would try to "big finger" a ride....r
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I just don't think 'Under My Big Finger' would have been quite the rock
'n roll hit, either.
Stephanie
in Brussels |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:10 am
Post subject: Re: "bap" and "bun" [was: Re: Is a thumb a finger?] |
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On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 19:39:01 GMT, the Omrud
<usenet.omrud@gmail.com> said:
[...]
| Quote: | It was very early in my AUE life that I explained my theory that you
can place a Brit (geographically and to a lesser extent socially) by
the name he gives to the round bread product into which is placed a
hamburger, and that the rest of his origins can be ascertained by a
careful study of the names he gives to other bakery items.
One day I should codify this knowledge.
|
When you do, you might note that if someone tells you a
scone is a slab of deep-fried bread dough, he or she is
likely to be from Utah.
(See the _American Heritage Dictionary Fourth Edition_ at
http://www.bartleby.com/61/38/S0153800.html, where it says
scone
[...] 2. _Utah_ Yeast bread dough, deep-fried and
served with honey and butter or with a savory filling.
I prefer to remember my grandmother's scones slathered with
homemade strawberry jam.) |
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