| Author |
Message |
Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:24 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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"Arfur Million" <arfur_million@hotmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | My experience (BrE) is that numbers are sometimes used. I have only
heard "ring finger" used for the left hand, although Chambers says
this is not exclusive:
ring'-finger the third finger, especially of the left hand, on which
the wedding-ring is worn.
|
MWCD11 is more specific about what "third" means:
the third finger especially of the left hand counting the index
finger as the first
(With my piano background, I consider it the fourth finger.) I've
never noticed it being restricted to the left hand.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell
|you. (If you're not that certain,
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.)
(650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:28 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> writes:
| Quote: | And, again, Merriam-Webster definitions begin by calling the
thumb a digit, but later imply that it's a finger by
referring to "the other fingers". From the Merriam-Webster
Unabridged Dictionary:
thumb
1 a : the short and thick first or most preaxial
digit of the human hand differing from the other
fingers in having but two phalanges and in having
greater freedom of movement and being opposable
to the other fingers.
With reputable dictionaries coming down on both sides of the
issue, what unimpeachable authority can we cite to show
unexceptionably that the thumb is or is not a finger?
|
The other definition to look at is "finger". MWCD11 says
1 : any of the five terminating members of the hand : a digit of
the forelimb; _especially_ : one other than the thumb
So they definitely consider the thumb to be a finger, but it's not a
canonical finger.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If the human brain were so simple
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |That we could understand it,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |We would be so simple
|That we couldn't.
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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c.j.robertson@hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | Aside: According to this fascinating article -
http://www.librarising.com/twelve.html - 2 out of 1000 babies born
today have six fingers and toes. When you look at the pictures of the
hands, ask yourself: "Is the fifth finger (starting from the thumb) the
pinky?" It looks more like a ring finger to me.
|
Tess: Twain has no pinkies.
Sam: No pinkies? You mean Twain's only got eight fingers?
Tess: No, he's got ten. He just doesn't have any pinkies.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I value writers such as Fiske.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |They serve as valuable object
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |lessons by showing that the most
|punctilious compliance with the
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |rules of usage has so little to do
(650)857-7572 |with either writing or thinking
|well.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --Richard Hershberger
|
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Arfur Million
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:04 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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|
"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:oe4zovmp.fsf@hpl.hp.com...
| Quote: | "Arfur Million" <arfur_million@hotmail.com> writes:
My experience (BrE) is that numbers are sometimes used. I have only
heard "ring finger" used for the left hand, although Chambers says
this is not exclusive:
ring'-finger the third finger, especially of the left hand, on which
the wedding-ring is worn.
MWCD11 is more specific about what "third" means:
the third finger especially of the left hand counting the index
finger as the first
(With my piano background, I consider it the fourth finger.)
|
Piano music published for the UK also use that convention. However, other
countries (eg Germany) start counting the fingers at 1 for the index finger,
and use a different symbol ("+" IIRC) for the thumb.
Regards,
Arfur
| Quote: | I've
never noticed it being restricted to the left hand.
|
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:53 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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|
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:28:31 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
<kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> said:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> writes:
And, again, Merriam-Webster definitions begin by calling the
thumb a digit, but later imply that it's a finger by
referring to "the other fingers". From the Merriam-Webster
Unabridged Dictionary:
thumb
1 a : the short and thick first or most preaxial
digit of the human hand differing from the other
fingers in having but two phalanges and in having
greater freedom of movement and being opposable
to the other fingers.
With reputable dictionaries coming down on both sides of the
issue, what unimpeachable authority can we cite to show
unexceptionably that the thumb is or is not a finger?
The other definition to look at is "finger". MWCD11 says
1 : any of the five terminating members of the hand : a digit of
the forelimb; _especially_ : one other than the thumb
So they definitely consider the thumb to be a finger, but it's not a
canonical finger.
|
I continue to feel that it would be good to change the name
of the thumb to the big finger. In addition to giving more
consistent nomenclature to the digits on the hand, this
would be in harmony with "the big toe".
Incidentally, we have a big toe, but I don't remember names
for any of the other toes. Can we call them the index toe,
the middle toe, the ring toe, and the little toe? |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:37 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:53:32 GMT, Bob Cunningham
<exw6sxq@earthlink.net> said:
[...]
| Quote: | Incidentally, we have a big toe, but I don't remember names
for any of the other toes. Can we call them the index toe,
the middle toe, the ring toe, and the little toe?
|
The only other names I remember for the toes are the piggy
that went to market, the piggy that stayed home, the piggy
that had roast beef, the piggy that had none, and the piggy
that cried "wee wee wee" all the way home. |
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Ted Schuerzinger
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
|
|
Somebody claiming to be "Arfur Million" <arfur_million@hotmail.com>
wrote in news:2v6bf.4244$fe6.4094@newsfe2-win.ntli.net:
| Quote: | Piano music published for the UK also use that convention. However,
other countries (eg Germany) start counting the fingers at 1 for the
index finger, and use a different symbol ("+" IIRC) for the thumb.
|
Yeah, but Germany also thinks there's a key of H.
--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
Oh Marge, anyone can miss Canada, all tucked away down there....
--Homer Simpson |
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batdorf
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:12 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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|
"Ted Schuerzinger" <fedya@bestweb.spam> escribió en el mensaje
news:Xns9705B2CE027F88jUwe9053kODf78sfkj0@ID-121946.user.dfncis.de...
| Quote: | Yeah, but Germany also thinks there's a key of H.
Or it doesn't think that there's a key of "B"... |
(It was the only way they could make a tune out of .Bach's name!)
HumphreyB |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
|
|
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:53:32 GMT, Bob Cunningham
<exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:28:31 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> said:
Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> writes:
And, again, Merriam-Webster definitions begin by calling the
thumb a digit, but later imply that it's a finger by
referring to "the other fingers". From the Merriam-Webster
Unabridged Dictionary:
thumb
1 a : the short and thick first or most preaxial
digit of the human hand differing from the other
fingers in having but two phalanges and in having
greater freedom of movement and being opposable
to the other fingers.
With reputable dictionaries coming down on both sides of the
issue, what unimpeachable authority can we cite to show
unexceptionably that the thumb is or is not a finger?
The other definition to look at is "finger". MWCD11 says
1 : any of the five terminating members of the hand : a digit of
the forelimb; _especially_ : one other than the thumb
So they definitely consider the thumb to be a finger, but it's not a
canonical finger.
I continue to feel that it would be good to change the name
of the thumb to the big finger.
|
Wouldn't "fat finger" be more descriptive? On each hand, only my
little finger is shorter than my thumb.
| Quote: | In addition to giving more
consistent nomenclature to the digits on the hand, this
would be in harmony with "the big toe".
|
A point in its favour, yes.
| Quote: | Incidentally, we have a big toe, but I don't remember names
for any of the other toes. Can we call them the index toe,
the middle toe, the ring toe, and the little toe?
|
I think only the little toe and the big toe commonly have names.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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|
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 17:01:15 GMT, Bob Cunningham
<exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:31:47 +0000, Charles Riggs
chriggs@éircom.net> said:
[...]
How about this? We have five fingers on each hand, but
the thumb by itself is not called a finger.
That's an interesting point. Can you think of an analogous
case? A discrete set comprising N "x"es where one of the
"x"es is not called an "x"? I've tried, but without
thinking of one so far.
|
All bugs* are insects, but a butterfly is not a bug.
All creatures that swim in the ocean are fish**, but a whale is not a
fish.
*in the common vernacular
**by some accounts
--
Charles Riggs |
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Josh Norther
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:58 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
|
|
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | I continue to feel that it would be good to change the name
of the thumb to the big finger. In addition to giving more
consistent nomenclature to the digits on the hand, this
would be in harmony with "the big toe".
|
[...]
If one were to change "the thumb" to "the big finger", what
would happen to the various idioms in English which require
the use of "thumb"? I'm thinking, in particular, of "all
thumbs", "thumb one's nose", "thumbs up", "thumbs down",
"under one's thumb", etc.
It's difficult to imagine a newspaper review, for example, in
which the reviewer gives a play or a movie "two big fingers
up".
And, just for Evan, what would become of the African "thumb
piano"?
--
Josh Norther
For e-mail, insert 2357 after phonics. |
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Ted Schuerzinger
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:05 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
|
|
Somebody claiming to be "batdorf" <bat@nospam.com> wrote in
news:3t4si1Fqsau1U1@individual.net:
| Quote: | "Ted Schuerzinger" <fedya@bestweb.spam> escribió en el mensaje
news:Xns9705B2CE027F88jUwe9053kODf78sfkj0@ID-121946.user.dfncis.de...
Yeah, but Germany also thinks there's a key of H.
Or it doesn't think that there's a key of "B"...
(It was the only way they could make a tune out of .Bach's name!)
|
German has a key of B; it's what English speakers call B-flat.
--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
Oh Marge, anyone can miss Canada, all tucked away down there....
--Homer Simpson |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:05 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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|
Josh Norther filted:
| Quote: |
If one were to change "the thumb" to "the big finger", what
would happen to the various idioms in English which require
the use of "thumb"? I'm thinking, in particular, of "all
thumbs", "thumb one's nose", "thumbs up", "thumbs down",
"under one's thumb", etc.
It's difficult to imagine a newspaper review, for example, in
which the reviewer gives a play or a movie "two big fingers
up".
And, just for Evan, what would become of the African "thumb
piano"?
|
I can't stop running through other examples...you'd hang up a poster with "big
finger tacks"...websites would tell you to click on the "big fingernails" to see
the complete picture...and transients would try to "big finger" a ride....r |
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Mark Brader
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:05 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
|
|
Josh Norther writes:
| Quote: | If one were to change "the thumb" to "the big finger", what
would happen[?] ... It's difficult to imagine a newspaper
review ... in which the reviewer gives a play or a movie
"two big fingers up".
|
This misconception should probably be explained, for the benefit
of foreign readers. It refers to the TV show whose original title
in 1986 was "Siskel & Ebert & the Movies". This is a show consisting
primarily of tandem movie reviews: one of the two co-hosts introduces
a movie and one or more excerpts from it are shown, then he reviews
the movie, then the other co-host gives his opinion and they discuss
their points of agreement and disagreement, typically taking about
5 minutes for one movie. Gene Siskel died in 1999; the show is now
hosted by Roger Ebert and Richard Roeper and called "Ebert & Roeper".
On this show -- and also two virtually identical earlier shows
produced by different companies, each also originally featuring
Siskel and Ebert, starting in 1978 -- in each review the two critics
would always rate each movie on a two-step scale%: they recommended it
or they didn't. In "Siskel & Ebert & the Movies" the decision was
made to represent this one-bit rating as "thumbs up" or "thumbs
down". So "two thumbs up" is not a rating that *a reviewer* can
give; it means that *both of them* recommended the movie. (And
other reviewers can't use it, at least not when talking about movies
on TV, because in that context the phrase is trademarked. [Registered
to Ebert Company, Ltd., and Siskel Productions, Ltd.])
% - I've heard Ebert say that having only two rating steps was a
stupid idea, and I've always felt the same way; I assume it was their
producers who insisted on it. It's worse yet when advertisers quote
them as saying "Two thumbs up", because both recommendations could
have been marginal, but if you don't know, it sounds like high praise.
In practice, for as long as I can remember, they have always felt free
to give ratings like "an enthusiastic thumbs up" or "my thumb is way,
way down" or "a marginal thumbs down". Ebert's printed reviews in the
Chicago Sun-Times, which are available online these days, use a 9-step
rating scale.
--
Mark Brader | "To judge by this film, the life of a cold war spy consists
Toronto | of sitting for endless hours in soundproof rooms with peo-
msb@vex.net | ple you do not particularly like, waiting for something to
| happen. Sort of like being a movie critic." --Roger Ebert
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
|
|
"Charles Riggs" <chriggs@éircom.net> wrote in message
news:oujqm1tejbshge3ss4lhegibphssj4miav@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:53:32 GMT, Bob Cunningham
exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:28:31 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> said:
Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> writes:
And, again, Merriam-Webster definitions begin by calling the
thumb a digit, but later imply that it's a finger by
referring to "the other fingers". From the Merriam-Webster
Unabridged Dictionary:
thumb
1 a : the short and thick first or most preaxial
digit of the human hand differing from the other
fingers in having but two phalanges and in having
greater freedom of movement and being opposable
to the other fingers.
With reputable dictionaries coming down on both sides of the
issue, what unimpeachable authority can we cite to show
unexceptionably that the thumb is or is not a finger?
The other definition to look at is "finger". MWCD11 says
1 : any of the five terminating members of the hand : a digit of
the forelimb; _especially_ : one other than the thumb
So they definitely consider the thumb to be a finger, but it's not a
canonical finger.
I continue to feel that it would be good to change the name
of the thumb to the big finger.
Wouldn't "fat finger" be more descriptive? On each hand, only my
little finger is shorter than my thumb.
In addition to giving more
consistent nomenclature to the digits on the hand, this
would be in harmony with "the big toe".
A point in its favour, yes.
Incidentally, we have a big toe, but I don't remember names
for any of the other toes. Can we call them the index toe,
the middle toe, the ring toe, and the little toe?
I think only the little toe and the big toe commonly have names.
|
5 toes.
This little piggy went to "market".
This little piggy stayed "home".
This little piggy had "roast beef".
This little piggy had "none".
This little piggy cried "wee wee wee!" all the way home.
Does that do it for you, Charles?
(I can't believe I recalled the whole thing!) |
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