| Author |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:52:10 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> said:
Bob Cunningham skrev:
[...]
I suggest that we call the thumb the "fat finger" and have
done with the doubt.
But it has a(n English) name already
Yes, "thumb", but that's out of harmony with the convention
for naming the others. All of the others have the form
"<adjective> finger". Calling the thumb the "fat finger"
would bring it into line with the finger-naming convention.
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I wonder how people use these names - I don't even know them all. Most
people I know will occasionally use "index finger". "Ring finger" is
used too, but only for the left hand. The only common ones are "little
finger" (for which, I believe, some Americans use a different name) and
"middle finger". Otherwise, they are just first, second, third, fourth,
which does cause confusion for those who start with the thumb.
--
Rob Bannister
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 06:14:53 GMT, Bob Cunningham
<exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 05:20:07 +0000, Charles Riggs
chriggs@éircom.net> said:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 22:30:58 GMT, Bob Cunningham
exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:
I suggest that we call the thumb the "fat finger" and have
done with the doubt.
But the thumb is not a finger.
Dictionaries have different takes on that issue. One that
unequivocally calls the thumb a finger is the _Cambridge
Advanced Learner's Dictionary_:
thumb
noun
the short thick finger on the side of your hand
which makes it possible to hold and pick things
up easily
One that carefully avoids even implying that the thumb might
be called a finger is the _American Heritage Dictionary of
the English Language: Fourth Edition_:
thumb
1a. The short thick digit of the human hand, next
to the index finger and opposable to each of the
other four digits.
And, again, Merriam-Webster definitions begin by calling the
thumb a digit, but later imply that it's a finger by
referring to "the other fingers". From the Merriam-Webster
Unabridged Dictionary:
thumb
1 a : the short and thick first or most preaxial
digit of the human hand differing from the other
fingers in having but two phalanges and in having
greater freedom of movement and being opposable
to the other fingers.
With reputable dictionaries coming down on both sides of the
issue, what unimpeachable authority can we cite to show
unexceptionably that the thumb is or is not a finger?
Another thing to think about is that the finger that's
between the index finger and the ring finger is commonly
called the middle finger. In a discrete set, you can't have
a middle member unless the number of members in the set is
odd. The name "middle finger" requires that the total
number of fingers be five, which in turn requires that the
thumb be considered a finger.
|
Another factor weighing against my statement is that we have ten
fingers. Under most circumstances, no-one would say, I think, "I have
exactly eight fingers".
| Quote: | We have four fingers and a thumb on each hand. Why change
the language on this point when it's working so well?
I would agree with you if I could believe that your
statement that we have four fingers and a thumb, rather than
five fingers, on each hand were incontrovertible.
|
How about this? We have five fingers on each hand, but the thumb by
itself is not called a finger.
That will be too subtle for Coop, but it works for me.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Arfur Million
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:j1Vaf.9830$D13.1816@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
| Quote: |
"Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote in message
news:3t2in0FqpoljU1@individual.net...
Bob Cunningham wrote:
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:52:10 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> said:
Bob Cunningham skrev:
[...]
I suggest that we call the thumb the "fat finger" and have
done with the doubt.
But it has a(n English) name already
Yes, "thumb", but that's out of harmony with the convention
for naming the others. All of the others have the form
"<adjective> finger". Calling the thumb the "fat finger"
would bring it into line with the finger-naming convention.
I wonder how people use these names - I don't even know them all. Most
people I know will occasionally use "index finger". "Ring finger" is used
too, but only for the left hand. The only common ones are "little finger"
(for which, I believe, some Americans use a different name) and "middle
finger". Otherwise, they are just first, second, third, fourth, which
does cause confusion for those who start with the thumb.
--
Rob Bannister
I'm a native speaker of English (SF Bay Area, California) and it's my
experience that "index", "middle", "ring", "litttle" (aka "pinky") are all
QUITE common, and I've never been aware of "ring finger" applying only to
the left.
As for calling them 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th ----- I've NEVER heard ANY
native English speaker (either British or American) use those terms.
|
My experience (BrE) is that numbers are sometimes used. I have only heard
"ring finger" used for the left hand, although Chambers says this is not
exclusive:
ring'-finger the third finger, especially of the left hand, on which the
wedding-ring is worn.
Regards,
Arfur
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 22:30:58 GMT, Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm always a little hesitant to say that I have five fingers
on each of my hands, because I'm not certain that a thumb
can be properly called a finger.
I find it a little amusing to see a Merriam-Webster
lexicographer wrestling with that problem in the _11th
Collegiate_. He or she defined thumb as follows:
1 : the short thick digit of the human hand that is
analogous in position to the big toe and differs from
the other fingers in having only two phalanges,
|
Hang on, that's not right is it? A "phalange" I find, is a finger (or thumb)
bone. My thumb has three, not two, - the first joined by a web of flesh to the
palm of my hand.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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batdorf
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:dkheln0de9@drn.newsguy.com...
| Quote: |
In Spanish guitar, the fingers of the right hand are called "Pollex",
"Index",
"Medius", "Annularis" and "Minimus" (and you don't use "Minimus")...I
would
imagine the actual names in Spanish of the various digits resemble the
Latin...
|
They do, and I've never seen them called by their Latin names, only by
the Spanish ones (except, perhaps, in pre-eighteenth century
manuscripts!).
Pulgar, índice, medio, anular, meñique.
You are wrong when you say that the little finger is not used. It IS
used and in order to avoid confusion with "m" for medio it is
represented by "e"...a standard rasgueado being fingered eami, and,
sometimes followed by a fifth stroke with the thumb.
HumphreyB |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On 4 Nov 2005 21:07:03 -0800, R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net>
wrought:
| Quote: | Alan filted:
I'm a native speaker of English (SF Bay Area, California) and it's my
experience that "index", "middle", "ring", "litttle" (aka "pinky") are all
QUITE common, and I've never been aware of "ring finger" applying only to
the left.
In Spanish guitar, the fingers of the right hand are called "Pollex", "Index",
"Medius", "Annularis" and "Minimus" (and you don't use "Minimus")...I would
imagine the actual names in Spanish of the various digits resemble the
Latin...
|
You imagine right, sir: *pulgar*, *índice*, *medio*, *anular* and
*menique*.
--
Ross Howard |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 13:28:26 +0100, "batdorf" <bat@nospam.com> wrought:
| Quote: |
"Ross Howard" <gguiri@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:cb5pm1d5ivaor7a2bc9jirmspajkihqn6g@4ax.com...
You imagine right, sir: *pulgar*, *índice*, *medio*, *anular* and
*menique*.
¡Ajén! (I quote!) "meñique" 
|
Poli rubio.
--
Ross Howard |
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batdorf
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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"Ross Howard" <gguiri@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:cb5pm1d5ivaor7a2bc9jirmspajkihqn6g@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
You imagine right, sir: *pulgar*, *índice*, *medio*, *anular* and
*menique*.
¡Ajén! (I quote!) "meñique" |
HumphreyB |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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Bob Cunningham quotes MWCD11:
| Quote: | 1 : the short thick digit of the human hand that is
analogous in position to the big toe and differs from
the other fingers in having only two phalanges,
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Jim Lawton:
| Quote: | Hang on, that's not right is it? A "phalange"
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(more commonly a "phalanx")
| Quote: | I find, is a finger (or thumb) bone. My thumb has three, not two,
- the first joined by a web of flesh to the palm of my hand.
|
No, that's one of the hand bones, called the metacarpals. There's
one connecting the wrist to each finger (including the thumb).
--
Mark Brader | "... There are three kinds of death in this world.
Toronto | There's heart death, there's brain death, and
msb@vex.net | there's being off the network." -- Guy Almes |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 12:43:20 -0000, msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham quotes MWCD11:
1 : the short thick digit of the human hand that is
analogous in position to the big toe and differs from
the other fingers in having only two phalanges,
Jim Lawton:
Hang on, that's not right is it? A "phalange"
(more commonly a "phalanx")
I find, is a finger (or thumb) bone. My thumb has three, not two,
- the first joined by a web of flesh to the palm of my hand.
No, that's one of the hand bones, called the metacarpals. There's
one connecting the wrist to each finger (including the thumb).
|
You're right, I stand corrected.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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Aside: According to this fascinating article -
http://www.librarising.com/twelve.html - 2 out of 1000 babies born
today have six fingers and toes. When you look at the pictures of the
hands, ask yourself: "Is the fifth finger (starting from the thumb) the
pinky?" It looks more like a ring finger to me. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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batdorf filted:
| Quote: |
"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:dkheln0de9@drn.newsguy.com...
In Spanish guitar, the fingers of the right hand are called "Pollex",
"Index",
"Medius", "Annularis" and "Minimus" (and you don't use "Minimus")...I
would
imagine the actual names in Spanish of the various digits resemble the
Latin...
They do, and I've never seen them called by their Latin names, only by
the Spanish ones (except, perhaps, in pre-eighteenth century
manuscripts!).
Pulgar, índice, medio, anular, meñique.
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That's what I get for taking guitar from a nun....r |
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batdorf
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:dkigj408jn@drn.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | That's what I get for taking guitar from a nun....r
|
Unless, of course, it was Eduardo *Monja* Montoya...
HumphreyB |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:31:47 +0000, Charles Riggs
<chriggs@éircom.net> said:
[...]
| Quote: | How about this? We have five fingers on each hand, but
the thumb by itself is not called a finger.
|
That's an interesting point. Can you think of an analogous
case? A discrete set comprising N "x"es where one of the
"x"es is not called an "x"? I've tried, but without
thinking of one so far. |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Is a thumb a finger? |
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"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | I'm a native speaker of English (SF Bay Area, California) and it's
my experience that "index", "middle", "ring", "litttle" (aka
"pinky") are all QUITE common, and I've never been aware of "ring
finger" applying only to the left. As for calling them 1st, 2nd,
3rd, or 4th ----- I've NEVER heard ANY native English speaker
(either British or American) use those terms.
|
They're used when discussing playing the piano. The numbers one
(thumb) through five (pinkie) are written (when needed as hints) on
the score, and the fingers are often referred to that way. The other
terms are also used informally (except that I don't think I've ever
heard or used "ring finger" in this context) but not as often.
When learning guitar, I found that numbers are also used...but with
different meanings. There "one" is the index finger and "four" is the
ring finger. (In the left hand. Others have noted that the fingers
in the right hand are "p", "i", "m", "a", and "e".) It took me quite
a while to get used to reading that without interference from my much
longer piano experience.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It's not coherent, it's merely
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |focused.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Keith Moore
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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