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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> spake thusly:
| Quote: | Like you, I'm eternally grateful that I have both senses, and if
one disappears, we're not going to have any say in which one we get
to keep. But as a theoretical leap into the future, I'd still opt
for silence over darkness.
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As one with, similarly, no personal experience in this area, I lean
the other way. I would find it hard to live without music.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:42 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Rick Wotnaz wrote:
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:Xns9705BD1336FCBwhhvans@62.253.170.163:
On 05 Nov 2005, wrote
Quite. Deafness is felt by many ( who go deaf in later life )
as more of a curse than blindness. This was shown by survey
lately and was, to me, a surprising finding.
It doesn't surprise me: it absolutely amazes me.
It neither surprises nor amazes me. My father felt the same way. He
was a musician and an avid music listener, which doubtless
influenced his choice. Many who become deaf begin to lose clarity
in their speech, too, and picking up signing later in life is not
always an easy task, so that communication becomes much more
difficult. My eyes have been poor enough long enough that I have
gradually come around to the same viewpoint. I wouldn't be losing
that much be becoming totally unable to see (or so I imagine), but
the world would be empty with no sound.
|
A very personal thing. I could live without sound - memories of music
I've known would be a consolation - but the restrictions on reading
material for the blind would be too much for me. And I'd be a bundle of
nerves trying to travel around the streets without being able to see
what was going on around me.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:59:50 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | ...I'm eternally grateful that I have both senses
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This is an interesting phrase, and I'm not being critical, Harvey, for
many of us are caught out saying it at one time or another, even the
atheists among us.
--
Charles Riggs
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:29:50 +0000, "Laura F. Spira"
<laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | I havw concluded that those of us who have reached middle age or beyond
with fully working body parts and faculties should treasure them and
count our blessings.
|
I treasure any of those body parts and faculties that remain working.
The most important body parts and faculties:
The brain, clearly, must be listed first. Without it we are nothing.
The rest merely serve as support systems for it, allowing it to
communicate, receive sensations, get around, and reproduce itself.
Those organs, from most essential to least essential, are, in my view
(allowing that some of them can be synthesized today and that probably
any of them will be, when required, in the future):
The heart, the liver, the bladder, at least one kidney, at least one
lung, the central nervous system (most of it), much of the intestinal
system, several of the glands, much of the skeleton, skin (our largest
organ) and the necessary blood vessels are equally important --
uninteresting for discussion purposes, though, since they are nearly
unarguably essential, so here come the debatable items, as to order:
The sense of hearing. Without it, we lose much of the contact with our
fellows we have because of it -- contact which helped make us human in
the first place.
The sense of sight, for obvious reasons.
At least one arm with an attached hand having, at a minimum, two
fingers. Without a functional hand, life becomes difficult, some tasks
not even being possible.
At least one leg probably, depending on how important mobility is to
the individual.
The sense of smell and taste perhaps, depending, in part, how
important food is to the individual.
The reproductive system, assuming it is in working order for at least
some of us or that man has found a better way.
Breasts
Hair
--
Charles Riggs |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:58 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> writes:
| Quote: | Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
There was an interesting article on a sign-language developed in a
remote community where congenital deafness was so common that it
became a lingua franca for the hearing community as well.
In Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, a large proportion of the
population were deaf (as a result of hereditary deafness), with the
result that a great many hearing members of the community were
bilingual in English and Martha's Vineyard Sign Language (which had
developed from Old Kentish Sign Language). There must certainly have
been times when members of the hearing population found it handy to
communicate with each other by sign language.
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Oh, yes.
Hearing members of the community were so accustomed to using signs
that the language found its way into discussions even when no deaf
people were present. Where speaking was out of place, as in
church or at school, hearing people often communicated in
sign... Signs were also used when distance made it impossible to
be heard. One man remembered, "Jim had a shop down on the shor of
Tisbury Pond, and his house was a ways away, up on the high land.
When Prudy, his wife, wanted to tell Jim something, she'd come to
the door, blow a fish horn, and Jim would step outside. He'd say,
'Excuse me. Prudy wants me for something,' then she'd make signs
to tell him what she needed done...Sign language was also used by
fishermen in boats on the open water. One man recalled,
"Fisherman hauling pots outside in the Sound or off Gay Head, when
they would be heaven knows how far apart, would discuss how the
luck was running--all that sort of thing. These men could talk
and hear all right, but it'd be too far to yell."...As in other
bilingual communities, use of the langauge was a way to delineate
who was and who was not a member of the community. Island people
frequently maintained social distance from off-Islanders by
exchanging comments about them in sign language..."People would
start off a sentence in speaking and then finish it off in sign
language, especially if they were saying something dirty. The
punch line would often be in sign language." [Nora Ellen Groce,
_Everyone Here Spoke Sign Language_, pp. 65-7]
| Quote: | I wouldn't call it a lingua franca, however.
|
No, it was a fully bilingual community, with both hearing and deaf
residents learning the language as children.
| Quote: | Martha's Vineyard was eventually replaced by American Sign Language
(which had developed from Old French Sign Language).
|
Although I believe that it's believed that Martha's Vineyard Sign
Language had a fairly large impact on the process by which Old French
Sign Language became American Sign Language, its speakers being one of
the few groups that came to the Hartford Academy with a common
language.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |whether cannibalism ought to be
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder,
|since it's less wasteful.
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:09 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | A very personal thing. I could live without sound - memories of music
I've known would be a consolation - but the restrictions on reading
material for the blind would be too much for me.
|
My mother has to rely on the "talking books" provided by the Association
for the Blind. They are wonderfully constructed, so that inside each
box, the tapes are always in the same order with a set of grooves you
can feel how they are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4. One problem: the boxes
themselves have the title and the box number (eg 1 of 5) in plain type.
How a blind person is supposed to deal with this without help is beyond me.
My mother was an avid reader, and this just about drives her insane.
--
Rob Bannister |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:17 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Robert Bannister wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean wrote:
A very personal thing. I could live without sound - memories of music
I've known would be a consolation - but the restrictions on reading
material for the blind would be too much for me.
My mother has to rely on the "talking books" provided by the
Association for the Blind. They are wonderfully constructed, so that
inside each
box, the tapes are always in the same order with a set of grooves you
can feel how they are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4. One problem: the boxes
themselves have the title and the box number (eg 1 of 5) in plain
type. How a blind person is supposed to deal with this without help
is beyond me.
My mother was an avid reader, and this just about drives her insane.
|
How wide a range of material is available? If she heard of some
interesting sounding piece of work, was it likely to be available in
talking book form? Did she read Braille?
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:09 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | Robert Bannister wrote:
My mother has to rely on the "talking books" provided by the
Association for the Blind. They are wonderfully constructed, so that
inside each
box, the tapes are always in the same order with a set of grooves you
can feel how they are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4. One problem: the boxes
themselves have the title and the box number (eg 1 of 5) in plain
type. How a blind person is supposed to deal with this without help
is beyond me.
My mother was an avid reader, and this just about drives her insane.
How wide a range of material is available? If she heard of some
interesting sounding piece of work, was it likely to be available in
talking book form? Did she read Braille?
|
My mother has been legally blind for less than 10 years and, to start
with, she could still read very large print like newspaper headlines, so
she does not know Braille. Talking books cover an immense field - our
local library also stocks them - they range from non-fiction to
Pratchett, although Mum likes to stick to Catherine Cookson.
--
Rob Bannister |
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