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Peter H.M. Brooks
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:17 pm
Post subject: Evolution of sign-language |
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There was an interesting article on a sign-language developed in a
remote community where congenital deafness was so common that it became
a lingua franca for the hearing community as well.
There seems to me to be two language evolutionary strands that might
lead to an explosion in the evolution of sign language.
The first has been in place for some decades. The exposure of people to
damaging sounds from rock music, car music systems designed for the deaf
and Sony personal music systems.
Apple has now hastened the evolutionary pressure for a new development
of sign systems with its extraordinarily successful iPod. People with
normal hearing now find themselves voluntarily entering the world of the
deaf - albeit whilst hearing unbelievably high quality music, of their
choice, at the same time.
Might a new sign language develop between iPod users and move swiftly
from a cursory creole, through to a full blown modern, ubiquitous sign
language?
I wonder if this development will outstrip that of increase mortality as
iPod wearers kill themselves, and others, in iPod generated traffic
accidents whilst wearing the devices or become roadkill as they walk in
front of busses.
Maybe a recent fashion is too much to imagine as having evolutionary
pressure, but I must attest myself to the addictive nature of
magnificent sound delivered exactly as you wish it. The iPod becomes
almost like a drug, delivering musical pleasure continuously. Surely as
new outbreak of sign-language to prevent interruption of the pleasure is
a natural consequence?
Has anybody spotted any proto-sign exchanges between iPod enhanced (or
detuned, depending on your view) humans?
--
De gustibus non disputandum est. - Auctor Ignotus
* TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:26 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
| Quote: | There was an interesting article on a sign-language developed in a
remote community where congenital deafness was so common that it became
a lingua franca for the hearing community as well.
|
In Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, a large proportion of the
population were deaf (as a result of hereditary deafness), with the
result that a great many hearing members of the community were
bilingual in English and Martha's Vineyard Sign Language (which had
developed from Old Kentish Sign Language). There must certainly have
been times when members of the hearing population found it handy to
communicate with each other by sign language. I wouldn't call it a
lingua franca, however.
Martha's Vineyard was eventually replaced by American Sign Language
(which had developed from Old French Sign Language).
| Quote: |
There seems to me to be two language evolutionary strands that might
lead to an explosion in the evolution of sign language.
The first has been in place for some decades. The exposure of people to
damaging sounds from rock music, car music systems designed for the deaf
and Sony personal music systems.
Apple has now hastened the evolutionary pressure for a new development
of sign systems with its extraordinarily successful iPod. People with
normal hearing now find themselves voluntarily entering the world of the
deaf - albeit whilst hearing unbelievably high quality music, of their
choice, at the same time.
Might a new sign language develop between iPod users and move swiftly
from a cursory creole, through to a full blown modern, ubiquitous sign
language?
I wonder if this development will outstrip that of increase mortality as
iPod wearers kill themselves, and others, in iPod generated traffic
accidents whilst wearing the devices or become roadkill as they walk in
front of busses.
Maybe a recent fashion is too much to imagine as having evolutionary
pressure, but I must attest myself to the addictive nature of
magnificent sound delivered exactly as you wish it. The iPod becomes
almost like a drug, delivering musical pleasure continuously. Surely as
new outbreak of sign-language to prevent interruption of the pleasure is
a natural consequence?
Has anybody spotted any proto-sign exchanges between iPod enhanced (or
detuned, depending on your view) humans?
|
A real development which might affect American Sign Language (and other
sign languages, of course) is the treatment of deafness with cochlear
implants. This is seen by some (many?) members of the Deaf community as
a threat to Deaf culture.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
| Quote: | The first has been in place for some decades. The exposure of people to
damaging sounds from rock music, car music systems designed for the deaf
and Sony personal music systems.
Apple has now hastened the evolutionary pressure for a new development
of sign systems with its extraordinarily successful iPod. People with
normal hearing now find themselves voluntarily entering the world of the
deaf - albeit whilst hearing unbelievably high quality music, of their
choice, at the same time.
|
Walkmans have been around for ages. This is just newer technology, but
several generations before this are going to be deaf in middle age. Just
as I am from going to cellar jazz clubs in my youth.
--
Rob Bannister
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izzy
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Raymod S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | There must certainly have been times when members of the hearing population found it handy to communicate with each other by sign language.
|
I suspect that hunter-gatherer societies found sign language handy [pun
intended by both of us  ] for communicating silently without alerting
their prey. Stan Tenen of the Meru Foundation claims that the shapes of
Hebrew letters are based on various hand configurations. I suspect that
the earliest forms of writing may have been based on sign language
"signs" that were already known to the language community.
It is interesting to note that the sign language of the American
Indians remained relatively uniform and understandable coast-to-coast
long after their spoken languages had become mutually unintelligible.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:30 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Quite. Deafness is felt by many ( who go deaf in later life ) as more
of a curse than blindness. This was shown by survey lately and was, to
me, a surprising finding.
Do you think that your youthful pleasures wrere worth later years of
deafness?
I ask not to be unkind, but to wonder if some reduction in the volume
of sound provided to the young is really necessary. Might a lower
volume that robs you of a mite of the pleasure (actually something that
isn't noticable as you soon adjust to the ambient volume and gain no
real pleasure from extreme volume) not be a long term kindness to the
youth of today?
I will probably, for congenital reasons, be deaf in my old age (should
I ever get there) and I view this likely prospect with trepidation,
hoping that some cure for the condition might be found by then.
I think that the deaf who now celebrate their condition as a special
blessing are, understandably, making the best fist of their state by
making a virtue out of necessity.
Despite these findings, I fear anosmia more than deafness. I hope that
I never have the chance to test this. I think that I could cope with
being deaf iff I could smell. |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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On 05 Nov 2005, wrote
| Quote: | Quite. Deafness is felt by many ( who go deaf in later life )
as more of a curse than blindness. This was shown by survey
lately and was, to me, a surprising finding.
|
It doesn't surprise me: it absolutely amazes me.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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I'd like to see a demonstration of this aetiology of Hebrew - in
detail. Do you know where I might find it?
Your second point is interesting. I wonder why. Do you know of any
theory to account for this? While we're at it, do you know any good
evidence for this being true? |
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Rick Wotnaz
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:50 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:Xns9705BD1336FCBwhhvans@62.253.170.163:
| Quote: | On 05 Nov 2005, wrote
Quite. Deafness is felt by many ( who go deaf in later life )
as more of a curse than blindness. This was shown by survey
lately and was, to me, a surprising finding.
It doesn't surprise me: it absolutely amazes me.
|
It neither surprises nor amazes me. My father felt the same way. He
was a musician and an avid music listener, which doubtless
influenced his choice. Many who become deaf begin to lose clarity
in their speech, too, and picking up signing later in life is not
always an easy task, so that communication becomes much more
difficult. My eyes have been poor enough long enough that I have
gradually come around to the same viewpoint. I wouldn't be losing
that much be becoming totally unable to see (or so I imagine), but
the world would be empty with no sound.
--
rzed
All those trees falling in the forest, you know. |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:33:37 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On 05 Nov 2005, wrote
Quite. Deafness is felt by many ( who go deaf in later life )
as more of a curse than blindness. This was shown by survey
lately and was, to me, a surprising finding.
It doesn't surprise me: it absolutely amazes me.
|
It is not even surprising to me. Ever tried watching a movie without
the sound track? With most films, you wouldn't be able to follow the
story, let alone enjoy the work. One can grasp most of what is doing
on in many films without watching them, just by listening.
Would you want to never again hear the sound of a human voice, let
alone music? Would you not find it unacceptable to not be able to join
in on discussions with the majority of hearing people? Screw that, I
say.
If blind, I could do, or learn to do, nearly everything I do now; not
so if I were deaf.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:50:04 -0500, Rick Wotnaz <desparn@wtf.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | I wouldn't be losing
that much be becoming totally unable to see (or so I imagine), but
the world would be empty with no sound.
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You've got it, Rick. Why some people don't feel the same way is what
amazes me.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Maria Conlon
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:05 am
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Rick Wotnaz wrote:
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
peter@psyche.demon.co.uk wrote
Quite. Deafness is felt by many ( who go deaf in later life )
as more of a curse than blindness. This was shown by survey
lately and was, to me, a surprising finding.
It doesn't surprise me: it absolutely amazes me.
It neither surprises nor amazes me. My father felt the same way. He
was a musician and an avid music listener, which doubtless
influenced his choice. Many who become deaf begin to lose clarity
in their speech, too, and picking up signing later in life is not
always an easy task, so that communication becomes much more
difficult. My eyes have been poor enough long enough that I have
gradually come around to the same viewpoint. I wouldn't be losing
that much be becoming totally unable to see (or so I imagine), but
the world would be empty with no sound.
|
I've felt the same way for a long time, but any time I've mentioned it
to people, they seem to be very surprised. Some even try to convince me
that I'm wrong, and since they're neither blind nor deaf, that seems
funny to me.
--
Maria Conlon |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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On 06 Nov 2005, Charles Riggs wrote
| Quote: | On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:33:37 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 05 Nov 2005, wrote
Quite. Deafness is felt by many ( who go deaf in later life
) as more of a curse than blindness. This was shown by
survey lately and was, to me, a surprising finding.
It doesn't surprise me: it absolutely amazes me.
It is not even surprising to me. Ever tried watching a movie
without the sound track? With most films, you wouldn't be able
to follow the story, let alone enjoy the work. One can grasp
most of what is doing on in many films without watching them,
just by listening.
|
It wouldn't be much of a sacrifice to me to lose access to films;
they don't really interest me very much.
Now, reading: that's a different matter. I intensely dislike
listening to other people's interpretations of written material:
the mediation of the text (whether fiction or non-fiction) deeply
annoys me, and it would not bother me one jot if "book at bedtime"
or audio books had never been thought of.
Unmediated access to text is impossible without sight: no audio
can replace an inner voice.
| Quote: | Would you want to never again hear the sound of a human voice,
let alone music? Would you not find it unacceptable to not be
able to join in on discussions with the majority of hearing
people? Screw that, I say.
|
Horses and courses. I'd say screw never again look at a painting,
or to read a book with your inner voice rather than hearing
somebody else's interpretation, or to see a sculpture, a painting,
a sunset or a colour.
| Quote: |
If blind, I could do, or learn to do, nearly everything I do
now; not so if I were deaf.
|
Maybe you could; I sure as hell couldn't.
Music -- making it and listening to it -- has been part of my life
since before I can remember (as has conversation, now that I think
about it). It would be heartbreaking to lose those, but of the
following two lists -- on the one hand looking at pictures,
unmediated reading of books, seeing sunsets, buildings, trees, or
sculpture, and on the other listening to music, soundtracks, and
other people -- well, there's no question that I'd sacrifice the
second category.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | On 06 Nov 2005, Charles Riggs wrote
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:33:37 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 05 Nov 2005, wrote
Quite. Deafness is felt by many ( who go deaf in later life
) as more of a curse than blindness. This was shown by
survey lately and was, to me, a surprising finding.
It doesn't surprise me: it absolutely amazes me.
It is not even surprising to me. Ever tried watching a movie
without the sound track? With most films, you wouldn't be able
to follow the story, let alone enjoy the work. One can grasp
most of what is doing on in many films without watching them,
just by listening.
It wouldn't be much of a sacrifice to me to lose access to films;
they don't really interest me very much.
Now, reading: that's a different matter. I intensely dislike
listening to other people's interpretations of written material:
the mediation of the text (whether fiction or non-fiction) deeply
annoys me, and it would not bother me one jot if "book at bedtime"
or audio books had never been thought of.
Unmediated access to text is impossible without sight: no audio
can replace an inner voice.
Would you want to never again hear the sound of a human voice,
let alone music? Would you not find it unacceptable to not be
able to join in on discussions with the majority of hearing
people? Screw that, I say.
Horses and courses. I'd say screw never again look at a painting,
or to read a book with your inner voice rather than hearing
somebody else's interpretation, or to see a sculpture, a painting,
a sunset or a colour.
If blind, I could do, or learn to do, nearly everything I do
now; not so if I were deaf.
Maybe you could; I sure as hell couldn't.
Music -- making it and listening to it -- has been part of my life
since before I can remember (as has conversation, now that I think
about it). It would be heartbreaking to lose those, but of the
following two lists -- on the one hand looking at pictures,
unmediated reading of books, seeing sunsets, buildings, trees, or
sculpture, and on the other listening to music, soundtracks, and
other people -- well, there's no question that I'd sacrifice the
second category.
|
I would probably have agreed with you had I never lived with someone who
has lost much of his hearing over a number of years. One major problem
with deafness that occurs later in life is the progressive feeling of
isolation. Deafness is not as obvious as blindness and normal
interaction with others becomes very difficult, resulting in a
detachment that can lead to quite severe depression. Hearing aids can
make things worse - the way the sounds are magnified is very
disorienting (Obaue: disorientating?).
I havw concluded that those of us who have reached middle age or beyond
with fully working body parts and faculties should treasure them and
count our blessings.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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On 06 Nov 2005, Laura F. Spira wrote
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
Music -- making it and listening to it -- has been part of my
life since before I can remember (as has conversation, now
that I think about it). It would be heartbreaking to lose
those, but of the following two lists -- on the one hand
looking at pictures, unmediated reading of books, seeing
sunsets, buildings, trees, or sculpture, and on the other
listening to music, soundtracks, and other people -- well,
there's no question that I'd sacrifice the second category.
I would probably have agreed with you had I never lived with
someone who has lost much of his hearing over a number of
years. One major problem with deafness that occurs later in
life is the progressive feeling of isolation. Deafness is not
as obvious as blindness and normal interaction with others
becomes very difficult, resulting in a detachment that can
lead to quite severe depression. Hearing aids can make things
worse - the way the sounds are magnified is very disorienting
(Obaue: disorientating?).
I havw concluded that those of us who have reached middle age
or beyond with fully working body parts and faculties should
treasure them and count our blessings.
|
I'd absolutely agree with that, and didn't intend at all to
minimise the horror of losing either sense.
That said, your experience with a person who has lost much of his
hearing -- whilst it's greater by far than any experience I've had
with people who are either deaf or blind -- has gained you intimate
knowledge of the devastating effects of only one of the conditions.
(Could it not be that people who feel that deafness was worse might
change their mind if they lived with someone who went blind?)
Like you, I'm eternally grateful that I have both senses, and if
one disappears, we're not going to have any say in which one we get
to keep. But as a theoretical leap into the future, I'd still opt
for silence over darkness.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Evolution of sign-language |
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peter@psyche.demon.co.uk wrote:
| Quote: | I'd like to see a demonstration of this aetiology of Hebrew - in
detail. Do you know where I might find it?
Your second point is interesting. I wonder why. Do you know of any
theory to account for this? While we're at it, do you know any good
evidence for this being true?
|
Ah, you Googleers! What fun you bring. If we had the slightest idea to
whom you were replying and which "second point" had particularly
attracted your attention, what joys and treasures might we not lay at
our feet!
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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