| Author |
Message |
Jim Lang
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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When a sentence, like the following, begins with "However" followed by
a dependent clause, I know the two must be separated by a comma:
"However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
My question is, when the "However" is replaced by "But," is the comma
still technically necessary, or does it suddenly become optional for
some reason:
(A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
In my mind, (B) looks kind of strange, even though "however" and "but"
are equivalent in this case. Yet, I have seen sentences like this
written both ways.
Thanks very much in advance for the clarification |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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<Jim Lang> wrote in message
news:4k0nm1pt7gao86jddvsmr2gs6608bmqc2b@4ax.com...
| Quote: | When a sentence, like the following, begins with "However" followed by
a dependent clause, I know the two must be separated by a comma:
"However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
My question is, when the "However" is replaced by "But," is the comma
still technically necessary, or does it suddenly become optional for
some reason:
(A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
In my mind, (B) looks kind of strange, even though "however" and "but"
are equivalent in this case. Yet, I have seen sentences like this
written both ways.
Thanks very much in advance for the clarification
|
"But" is a conjunction, and would not be followed by a comma unless there
were some kind of parenthesis to be comma'd off. In your sample sentence
there is such a parenthesis ("given the appearance of the knife found at the
site") which must have a comma at both ends. So your version B is correct; A
is not. The comma has nothing to do with the "but" - it is one of a
parenthetical pair.
"However" as used in your sample is not a conjunction but a "sentence
adverb". Such adverbs don't usually need to be set off by commas
("unfortunately", "therefore", "accordingly") but "however" is an exception.
It can also be used as a subordinating conjunction ("However tired you are,
you must finish the work"), and the comma after an adverbial "however" helps
to prevent an annoying misdirection of the reader. It used to be thought
more stylish to leave such an adverbial "however" until later in the
sentence, where it would be set off by commas: "Given the appearance of the
knife found at the site, however, the charges did not seem justified" or
"Given, however, the appearance of the knife found at the site, the charges
did not seem justified". This isn't often seen nowadays, I suppose because
delaying the "however" means that the implied contrastive sense isn't
immediately apparent.
Alan Jones |
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designquest10
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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Takes, deep breath> "
| Quote: | Also, I would have neither paused nor placed a comma after
Takes.
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"Ah, but if you _had_ paused, how would you have punctuated it? (Clue:
There may be more than one acceptable answer.) "
--> Clue? I don't need no stinkin' clue(s)!
Actually, I would never have written "Takes, deep breath" --
with or without a comma. |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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<Jim Lang> wrote in message
news:4k0nm1pt7gao86jddvsmr2gs6608bmqc2b@4ax.com...
| Quote: | When a sentence, like the following, begins with "However" followed by
a dependent clause, I know the two must be separated by a comma:
"However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
My question is, when the "However" is replaced by "But," is the comma
still technically necessary, or does it suddenly become optional for
some reason:
(A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
In my mind, (B) looks kind of strange, even though "however" and "but"
are equivalent in this case.
|
The supposed equivalence is doubtful, so far as But is a
conjunction (usually of two clauses, both main or both
subordinate) but However is not. Secondly case B defies
the old rule of thumb forbidding use of And or But as the
first word in any sentence.
The best general editorial maxim is: "When in doubt,
cut it out," i.e. in this case remove whichever first word
in the sentence. This restates the question what we are
aiming at, in this writing (e.g. a logical effect, a literary
effect, a rhetorical effect, etc.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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<Jim Lang> wrote in message
news:4k0nm1pt7gao86jddvsmr2gs6608bmqc2b@4ax.com...
| Quote: | When a sentence, like the following, begins with "However" followed
by
a dependent clause, I know the two must be separated by a comma:
"However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
My question is, when the "However" is replaced by "But," is the
comma
still technically necessary, or does it suddenly become optional for
some reason:
(A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
In my mind, (B) looks kind of strange, even though "however" and
"but"
are equivalent in this case. Yet, I have seen sentences like this
written both ways.
|
In the sentence as you have it, a comma is required after "but", but
not because of it. It is part of the pair of commas that set off the
parenthetical phrase, "given the appearance of the knife found at the
site", from the rest of the sentence. If you leave that phrase out,
you have a choice between "However, the charges did not seem
justified," and "But the charges did not seem justified". Myself, I
wouldn't put a comma after "but" in formal writing, unless something
else in the sentence required one there. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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designquest10 wrote:
| Quote: | "Oh Gawd, here we go again with the Pause Test for comma placement.
Takes, deep breath> "
--->So sorry to have stirred up such ennui-laden agnst. Hope you
will
be feeling better soon!
Also, I would have neither paused nor placed a comma after
Takes.
|
Ah, but if you _had_ paused, how would you have punctuated it? (Clue:
There may be more than one acceptable answer.)
--
Mike. |
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designquest10
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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"Oh Gawd, here we go again with the Pause Test for comma placement.
<Takes, deep breath> "
--->So sorry to have stirred up such ennui-laden agnst. Hope you will
be feeling better soon!
Also, I would have neither paused nor placed a comma after Takes. |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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On 4 Nov 2005 05:11:36 -0800, "designquest10" <dhk64@yahoo.com>
wrought:
| Quote: | "However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
...
A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
In my mind, (B) looks kind of strange, even though "however" and "but"
are equivalent in this case. Yet, I have seen sentences like this
written both ways."
--> B is correct. Grammatically it functions excatly the same as the
"However" sentence.
With your mind's voice, if you read B, you will notice that you do
indeed pause ever so slighlty between "But" and "given"
|
Oh Gawd, here we go again with the Pause Test for comma placement.
<Takes, deep breath>
Forget pauses. A comma is essential after "but" there, because
"given....site" is parenthetical -- stuck in the middle of the main
clause -- so it needs marking as such with a pair of commas, dashes or
brackets.
| Quote: | You do not provide the sentence(s) prior to these sentences. Would it
work to drop either word? As in:
Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
|
Yes. And you could always recover the "however" at the end: "...the
charges did not seem justified, however", or -- in a relatively
informal context -- "did not seem justified, though".
--
Ross Howard |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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Jim Lang <> writes:
| Quote: | When a sentence, like the following, begins with "However" followed by
a dependent clause, I know the two must be separated by a comma:
"However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
My question is, when the "However" is replaced by "But," is the comma
still technically necessary, or does it suddenly become optional for
some reason:
(A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
In my mind, (B) looks kind of strange, even though "however" and "but"
are equivalent in this case. Yet, I have seen sentences like this
written both ways.
|
Use the Force, Jim.
Trust your mind, Jim.
"However" is a subordinating conjunction, and is usually set off from its
clause by comma intonation. "But" is a coordinating conjunction, but, more
importantly, comma intonation is optional with "but". You *can* separate,
as I do above, or you can omit that comma and intone the sentence faster,
without a comma dip. (See http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/commas.html
on the comma dip)
Commas are governed for many English speakers, of whom you appear to be one,
by phonology, not grammar. So trust your inner ear and all will be well.
If you hear a comma intonation, punctuate with a comma.
If you don't, don't.
That's it.
As Lewis Thomas puts it in his "Notes on Punctuation":
"The commas are the most useful and usable of all the stops. It is highly
important to put them in place as you go along. If you try to come back
after doing a paragraph and stick them in the various spots that tempt you
you will discover that they tend to swarm like minnows in all sorts of
crevices whose existence you hadn'’t realized and before you know it the
whole long sentence becomes immobilized and lashed up squirming in commas.
Better to use them sparingly, and with affection, precisely when the need
for each one arises, nicely, by itself."
-- http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/punctuation.html
-John Lawler -- Linguistics @ umich.edu & wwu.edu
------------------------------------------------
"Overrated, anyway, those complete sentences."
-- Chris Waigl |
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designquest10
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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"However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
....
A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
In my mind, (B) looks kind of strange, even though "however" and "but"
are equivalent in this case. Yet, I have seen sentences like this
written both ways."
--> B is correct. Grammatically it functions excatly the same as the
"However" sentence.
With your mind's voice, if you read B, you will notice that you do
indeed pause ever so slighlty between "But" and "given"
You do not provide the sentence(s) prior to these sentences. Would it
work to drop either word? As in:
Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified." |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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Jim Lang asks about:
| Quote: | "However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
|
John Lawler writes:
| Quote: | "However" is a subordinating conjunction...
|
Whoa there! It's not a conjunction when it's used in this sense!
It's an adverb, which is demonstrated by the fact that you can
move it around:
"Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, however, the
charges did not seem justified."
"Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the charges,
however, did not seem justified."
"Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the charges
did not, however, seem justified."
"Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the charges
did not seem justified, however."
Some of these may not be considered the best style, but they all
mean the same thing and use "however" in the same way. You can't
do that with "but", which, of course, *is* a conjunction.
--
Mark Brader "How many pessimists end up by desiring
Toronto the things they fear, in order to prove
msb@vex.net that they are right." -- Robert Mallet
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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Michael Nitabach
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:41 am
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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jlawler@umich.edu (John Lawler) wrote in
news:HhJaf.1191$yb2.217@news.itd.umich.edu:
| Quote: | Quoting Leis Thomas:
If you try to come back
after doing a paragraph and stick them in the various spots that
tempt you you will discover that they tend to swarm like minnows
in all sorts of crevices whose existence you hadn't realized and
before you know it the whole long sentence becomes immobilized
and lashed up squirming in commas.
|
This sentence could stand a few lashes.
--
Mike Nitabach |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:23 am
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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"Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:TNKaf.65414$m%6.4831@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: |
Jim Lang> wrote in message
news:4k0nm1pt7gao86jddvsmr2gs6608bmqc2b@4ax.com...
When a sentence, like the following, begins with "However" followed
by
a dependent clause, I know the two must be separated by a comma:
"However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
My question is, when the "However" is replaced by "But," is the comma
still technically necessary, or does it suddenly become optional for
some reason:
(A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
In my mind, (B) looks kind of strange, even though "however" and
"but"
are equivalent in this case. Yet, I have seen sentences like this
written both ways.
Thanks very much in advance for the clarification
"But" is a conjunction, and would not be followed by a comma unless
there were some kind of parenthesis to be comma'd off. In your sample
sentence there is such a parenthesis ("given the appearance of the
knife found at the site") which must have a comma at both ends. So
your version B is correct; A is not. The comma has nothing to do with
the "but" - it is one of a parenthetical pair.
"However" as used in your sample is not a conjunction but a "sentence
adverb". Such adverbs don't usually need to be set off by commas
("unfortunately", "therefore", "accordingly") but "however" is an
exception. It can also be used as a subordinating conjunction
("However tired you are, you must finish the work"), and the comma
after an adverbial "however" helps to prevent an annoying misdirection
of the reader. It used to be thought more stylish to leave such an
adverbial "however" until later in the sentence, where it would be set
off by commas: "Given the appearance of the knife found at the site,
however, the charges did not seem justified" or "Given, however, the
appearance of the knife found at the site, the charges did not seem
justified". This isn't often seen nowadays, I suppose because delaying
the "however" means that the implied contrastive sense isn't
immediately apparent.
|
Glad you posted this.
However sliced, bread is bread. |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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John Lawler:
| Quote: | "However" is a subordinating conjunction...
|
Mark Brader:
| Quote: | Whoa there! It's not a conjunction when it's used in this sense!
It's an adverb, which is demonstrated by the fact that you can
move it around...
|
John Lawler:
| Quote: | "However" is a subordinating conjunction; it has the shape and the rights
of an adverb here, however...
|
Oh come on! It looks like an adverb and it quacks like an adverb.
There are no subordinate clauses in the original sentence, none in
my examples, and none here:
| Quote: | He's here; however, he's not entirely sober.
He's here; he's, however, not entirely sober.
He's here; he's not, however, entirely sober.
He's here; he's not entirely sober, however.
|
Of course it's a conjunction in at least one other sense, but not here.
--
Mark Brader, "It is impossible. Solution follows..."
Toronto, msb@vex.net -- Richard Heathfield |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Punctuating "But" vs "However |
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Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> writes:
| Quote: | Jim Lang asks about:
"However, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(A) But given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
(B) But, given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the
charges did not seem justified."
John Lawler writes:
"However" is a subordinating conjunction...
Whoa there! It's not a conjunction when it's used in this sense!
It's an adverb, which is demonstrated by the fact that you can
move it around:
"Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, however, the
charges did not seem justified."
"Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the charges,
however, did not seem justified."
"Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the charges
did not, however, seem justified."
"Given the appearance of the knife found at the site, the charges
did not seem justified, however."
Some of these may not be considered the best style, but they all
mean the same thing and use "however" in the same way. You can't
do that with "but", which, of course, *is* a conjunction.
|
"However" is a subordinating conjunction; it has the shape and the rights
of an adverb here, however, which means that it can be displaced to various
places in that clause (but only in that clause, please note), much the way
any adverb can be displaced, as in the following essentially equivalent
sentences:
He's here; however, he's not entirely sober.
He's here; he's, however, not entirely sober.
He's here; he's not, however, entirely sober.
He's here; he's not entirely sober, however.
Subordinating conjunctions outnumber coordinating by at least twenty to
one. And when you count the various positions they can take in their
clause, and whether they're separated from the clause with comma
intonation, it goes up.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan & W Washington U
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points." -- Didactylos |
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