Vocaboly.com

[Robert Bannister]

Matthew Huntbach wrote:

[R J Valentine]

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:43:28 -0800 Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:

} Maria Conlon <maria.c-b@sbcglobal.net> writes:
}
}> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
}>> Maria Conlon writes:
....
}>>> Not all the people who may be reading those t-shirts are completely
}>>> sane, you know.
}>>
}>> That way, I'd say, lies burqas. There is very little in the way of
}>> women's dress that has not, at one time or another, been said to
}>> "inflame the lust" of men or been dangerous for them to wear, lest
}>> some men consider it an invitation. Naked arms, naked hair, naked
}>> ankles, pants, etc.
}>
}> Sure, but burqa-type repression is not where I was going with my
}> comments.
}
} I know, but this really does seem like a slippery slope. Once you
} start accepting that "people shouldn't dress like this because it
} sends a message that might cause other people to lose control", it's
} hard to be sure that the line will be drawn someplace *you'd* consider
} reasonable.

The both of you seem to think that burqas are an extreme sort of control
aid. It doesn't work that way. I lived most of my life in an area of
ethnic diversity (FLMAIA). I was sitting in the food court at Laurel Mall
once eating a Chicago [style hot dog] from the Orange Julius counter when
I happened to notice a group of moderately ethnic looking but otherwise
vaguely athletically dressed people and strollers heading for the ladies'
room. Time passed and my notice drifted around to other things, when a
couple of women wearing burqas demanded my attention as they left the
ladies' room and headed for the exit _pushing the same strollers and
wearing the same running shoes_. The previously unremarkable vision of
atletic wear hadn't quite faded from my memory, but I recalibrated my
opinion of burqas and the people who wear them real quick. On another
occasion I got on the bus and the only seat was next to a woman wearing a
burqa, and she didn't make any move to make me feel I shouldn't, so I sat
there on my best behavior. But I did notice on looking out the window
that her eyes would be the envy of any fashion model. Also, when I was a
kid, it happened that my Aunt Kate had a sideline making bathing suits for
nuns at a local convent, and she also drove them to the beach and back
when they needed a ride. I happened to go along on one trip, and my
opinion of nuns greatly improved. Later in college (then the LCUIA) I had
a nun as a lab partner in semimicro qualitative analysis and another in my
Greek class, both of whom dressed in regulation nunwear. Sure, I behaved,
but I also behave when sitting next to a braless woman who has popped an
extra button.

--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@theWorld.com>

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

R J Valentine <rj@TheWorld.com> writes:

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

JF <jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk> writes:

[R J Valentine]

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:55:31 -0800 Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:

} R J Valentine <rj@TheWorld.com> writes:
}
}> The both of you seem to think that burqas are an extreme sort of
}> control aid. It doesn't work that way.
}
} I don't think that they're an extreme sort of control aid; I think
} that they're an extreme in the notion of what's "appropriately modest
} dress". Which may well be internalized to the point at which it
} doesn't seem at all silly and to which it even seems wrong to not wear
} one (how many women here would even consider going topless to the park
} or store on a hot day?) but which, for most people not brought up in
} such cultures (and many who are) would seem repressive to be expected
} to wear.

I agree with the point you probably intended to make, and I probably
didn't make mine clearly enough. I was talking not about the wearer of
the garb or the people who encourage the wearing, but of the control
exercised in himself (or herself) by the casual observer. I suggest that
the garb or lack of it is for practical purposes transparent, as it were.
I suggest that women in burqas get no more or less attention from
heterosexual men used to seeing them than naked women at a nudist resort
might. The only thing that gets noticed are sudden deviations from the
norm (or anything seen by unadjusted observers). I know a deacon who
reported being quite well adapted (so to say) to topless women in the
South Pacific. I know from my youth being told that a male religious-
instruction teacher had wrestled in his youth with the problem of being
inflamed by catching sight of a woman's ankle, when ankles were a normal
sight in my youth and no more remarkable than -- say -- elbows are now.

I don't expect this point to be particularly controversial upon
consideration. I mention it only in case that my point was thought to
have been about control exercised by women in their own choice of clothing
or by authorities in requiring it, rather than by a casual observer of
himself (or herself). There exist people who cannot exercise proper
control over themselves, and they need to be dealt with in all societies.
There are also people who need to know that sudden deviations from
surrounding norms may have unexpected consequences. But an elementary
school full of students wearing Terrance and Phillip T-shirts are not
likely to shock anyone but the more sensitive in the faculty, who may
deserve to be shocked.

}> when I happened to notice a group of moderately ethnic looking but
}> otherwise vaguely athletically dressed people and strollers heading
}> for the ladies' room. Time passed and my notice drifted around to
}> other things, when a couple of women wearing burqas demanded my
}> attention as they left the ladies' room and headed for the exit
}> _pushing the same strollers and wearing the same running shoes_.
}> The previously unremarkable vision of atletic wear hadn't quite
}> faded from my memory, but I recalibrated my opinion of burqas and
}> the people who wear them real quick.
}
} In this example, my guess would be that they were going back to a
} setting in which they were going to be encountering people who *would*
} have considered their previous dress inappropriate and the fact that
} you had seen them that way doubly so.

I agree with you.

<DRIFT WARNING>

Let me throw in another slice of life. Around the corner from where I
lived most of my life, there lived a woman occasionally to be seen walking
in a burqa. It was my practice to wave to her as I waved to most of my
neighbors, and she would respond accordingly. Now, I have no idea who she
was or if I had seen her dressed differently, but then neither did she
know that I hadn't (most likely).

There's a related fact of life I learned from my stepfather, who was a
bookbinding salesman (cf. medical equipment salesmen). Famous people
don't know you don't know them. He would observe a librarian noticing a
famous person and ask if she'd like to meet him. So he would introduce
them without mentioning to either of them that he didn't know him, either,
and everyone would leave the exchange happy.

</DW>

--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@theWorld.com>

[Matthew Huntbach]

R J Valentine wrote:

[R J Valentine]

On 7 Nov 2005 02:40:26 -0800 Matthew Huntbach <mhuntbach@hotmail.com> wrote:

} R J Valentine wrote:
}
}
}> On another
}> occasion I got on the bus and the only seat was next to a woman wearing a
}> burqa, and she didn't make any move to make me feel I shouldn't, so I sat
}> there on my best behavior. But I did notice on looking out the window
}> that her eyes would be the envy of any fashion model.
}
} My understanding is that the word "burqa" refers to a tent-like garment
} that goes over the head and covers the whole body, with a mesh over the
} eyes so even they can't be seen.
}
} Is this really what you are talking about?
}
} There does seem to be a tendency recently for "burqa" to be used more
} generally to mean any clothing which covers the whole arms, legs and
} hair, but this is incorrect. There are other words used to describe
} this sort of clothing, which in burqa-wearing circles would be
} considered immodest.

This one covered her nose, mouth, and forehead, but had an eye slot. I
sat right next to her with the window on the other side of her. If she
could see out, I still could have seen in, even if there had been an eye
screen. I used the term only because Mr. Kirshenbaum had already used it.
I usually tell such stories with terms like "full Muslim regalia". If you
tell me with some authority that it wasn't a burqa if she was showing eye,
I'll say an extra Hail Mary next time I go to confession.

The nuns in the other story were wearing flip-flops under their habits.
Does that make them any less habits?

--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@theWorld.com>

[Matthew Huntbach]

On Sat, 5 Nov 2005, Robert Bannister wrote:

[Maria Conlon]

Matthew Huntbach wrote, in part:

[Maria Conlon]

Matthew Huntbach wrote:

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

R J Valentine <rj@TheWorld.com> writes:

[Mike Lyle]

R J Valentine wrote:

[Matthew Huntbach]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, Maria Conlon wrote:

[Matthew Huntbach]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, Maria Conlon wrote:

[Matthew Huntbach]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, R J Valentine wrote: