| Author |
Message |
Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:10 pm
Post subject: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
From <www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=4067918&nav=3w6o>:
[Illinois] State Senator Steve Rauschenberger says he plans to
introduce a resolution in the state Senate this week, calling
on trendy retailer Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling a
line of racy t-shirts.
The Republican, who is a GOP candidate for governor, says the
$24.50 t-shirts are "offensive" and "degrading." He says if
the Senate resolution doesn't stop Abercrombie from selling
its shirts - he'll lead a boycott of the stores.
The 49-year-old state Senator says he doesn't pretend to be
the bellwether of what's cool but he believes the t-shirts
disrespect women.
Some teenage girls across the country also are calling for a
boycott of Abercrombie. The women and girls say the shirts are
degrading, but Abercrombie says plenty of women are buying
them.
So what's all the fuss about?
These: <www.drudgereport.com/af.jpg>.
--
Ross Howard
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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | Abercrombie & Fitch is delighted with the furor.
|
I invoke Godwin's Law. |
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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not sure how all states are set up, but Florida has a
House and a Senate. I have a state Senator and state Representative
that allegedly represent me in Tallahassee.
|
Nebraska is the only state that has a unicameral legislature. All others
have a bicameral one. The upper house might well be called 'the Senate'
everywhere (anyone know?), but names for the lower house vary as follows:
Assembly: California, New York State, Nevada, Wisconsin
House of Delegates: Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia
General Assembly: New Jersey
House of Representatives: all others
As for the name of the legislature itself:
General Assembly: Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia,
Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland,
Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode
Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia
General Court: Massachusetts, New Hampshire
Legislative Assembly: North Dakota, Oregon
Legislature: all others (incl. Nebraska)
|
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Charles Riggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:10:22 +0100, Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | From <www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=4067918&nav=3w6o>:
[Illinois] State Senator Steve Rauschenberger says he plans to
introduce a resolution in the state Senate this week, calling
on trendy retailer Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling a
line of racy t-shirts.
The Republican, who is a GOP candidate for governor, says the
$24.50 t-shirts are "offensive" and "degrading." He says if
the Senate resolution doesn't stop Abercrombie from selling
its shirts - he'll lead a boycott of the stores.
The 49-year-old state Senator says he doesn't pretend to be
the bellwether of what's cool but he believes the t-shirts
disrespect women.
Some teenage girls across the country also are calling for a
boycott of Abercrombie. The women and girls say the shirts are
degrading, but Abercrombie says plenty of women are buying
them.
So what's all the fuss about?
These: <www.drudgereport.com/af.jpg>.
|
I assume that "Who need brains when you have these?" were displayed on
the part of the shirt that would cover a woman's tits.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:10:22 +0100, Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From <www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=4067918&nav=3w6o>:
[Illinois] State Senator Steve Rauschenberger says he plans to
introduce a resolution in the state Senate this week, calling
on trendy retailer Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling a
line of racy t-shirts.
The Republican, who is a GOP candidate for governor, says the
$24.50 t-shirts are "offensive" and "degrading." He says if
the Senate resolution doesn't stop Abercrombie from selling
its shirts - he'll lead a boycott of the stores.
The 49-year-old state Senator says he doesn't pretend to be
the bellwether of what's cool but he believes the t-shirts
disrespect women.
Some teenage girls across the country also are calling for a
boycott of Abercrombie. The women and girls say the shirts are
degrading, but Abercrombie says plenty of women are buying
them.
So what's all the fuss about?
These: <www.drudgereport.com/af.jpg>.
|
Good grief, this is a world where people are killing each other, starving to
death, poisoning the planet, and he's worried about a set of feeble t-shirts?
There was a young woman in my local music club the other week with a t shirt
emblazoned with the legend "shag me now" - now that's racey.
..
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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JF
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
X-No-Archive: yes
In message <ncjmm1prp7ddubc4n0bgtg83a1jrhgu419@4ax.com>, Jim Lawton
<usenet1@jimlawton.TAKEOUTinfo> writes
| Quote: | There was a young woman in my local music club the other week with a t shirt
emblazoned with the legend "shag me now" - now that's racey.
|
One of Bognor's nice little Latvian playa poodles has a beach towel
bearing the legend: "Blow-jobs. GBP10" followed by a cellphone number.
Now that's practical.
--
James Follett. My posts are set to a line length of less than 70 characters so
there's no excuse for reposting any of my text with broken lines. Please check
before posting. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:10:22 +0100, Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | From <www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=4067918&nav=3w6o>:
[Illinois] State Senator Steve Rauschenberger says he plans to
introduce a resolution in the state Senate this week, calling
on trendy retailer Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling a
line of racy t-shirts.
The Republican, who is a GOP candidate for governor, says the
$24.50 t-shirts are "offensive" and "degrading." He says if
the Senate resolution doesn't stop Abercrombie from selling
its shirts - he'll lead a boycott of the stores.
So what's all the fuss about?
|
Note in the article that Steve Rauschenberger is a politician and a
politician who is running for a more important office. State Senator
is one of those political offices that only draw attention when the
office holder does something bizarre. I'm fairly up on politics, and
I don't have the foggiest idea of who the state Senator is from my
district.
Introducing this resolution to the state Senate got Steve some
publicity. He got his name out there in front of the voters, and he
probably had his picture in the paper. He'd introduce a ban on
mother's milk if it would guarantee him some news coverage and a taped
interview on television.
Many state Senators will vote for the resolution if it is introduced.
Not that they care about the issue, but they don't want some future
opponent saying "He voted against banning obscene tee shirts".
Abercrombie & Fitch is delighted with the furor. Normally, they have
pay newspapers to feature their offerings. Not only has the issue
provided A&F with some free advertising, but the issue has also
stamped the shirts as "cool". Money in the bank.
Somewhere out there there's the general public; the average Americans.
The people in this group aren't concerned about the issue, aren't
offended by the tee shirts, and probably don't even notice them.
There is no fuss.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:07:25 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:10:22 +0100, Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com
wrote:
From <www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=4067918&nav=3w6o>:
[Illinois] State Senator Steve Rauschenberger says he plans to
introduce a resolution in the state Senate this week, calling
on trendy retailer Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling a
line of racy t-shirts.
The Republican, who is a GOP candidate for governor, says the
$24.50 t-shirts are "offensive" and "degrading." He says if
the Senate resolution doesn't stop Abercrombie from selling
its shirts - he'll lead a boycott of the stores.
So what's all the fuss about?
Note in the article that Steve Rauschenberger is a politician and a
politician who is running for a more important office. State Senator
is one of those political offices that only draw attention when the
office holder does something bizarre. I'm fairly up on politics, and
I don't have the foggiest idea of who the state Senator is from my
district.
|
It should be mentioned that a state Senator is quite different from a
US Senator. I'm not sure how all states are set up, but Florida has a
House and a Senate. I have a state Senator and state Representative
that allegedly represent me in Tallahassee.
I looked up my district Senator and I do recognize the name. He came
to the door when he was first running for office. I looked up my
district Representative, but I've never heard of the guy. If he runs
for a higher office, he'd be wise to introduce some sort of silly
legislation so people would recognize his name.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Matthew Huntbach
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005, Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:10:22 +0100, Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com
wrote:
From <www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=4067918&nav=3w6o>:
[Illinois] State Senator Steve Rauschenberger says he plans to
introduce a resolution in the state Senate this week, calling
on trendy retailer Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling a
line of racy t-shirts.
Note in the article that Steve Rauschenberger is a politician and a
politician who is running for a more important office. State Senator
is one of those political offices that only draw attention when the
office holder does something bizarre. I'm fairly up on politics, and
I don't have the foggiest idea of who the state Senator is from my
district.
|
Similarly in Britain most people don't know who their councillors
are. There was an opinion poll published recently which showed that
only some small proportion (I think it might have been 20%) of
Londoners even knew London borough elections will take place next
year. Of course, states in the USA have much more power than councils
in the UK.
| Quote: | Introducing this resolution to the state Senate got Steve some
publicity. He got his name out there in front of the voters, and he
probably had his picture in the paper. He'd introduce a ban on
mother's milk if it would guarantee him some news coverage and a taped
interview on television.
|
I note the quote says a resolution calling on them to "stop selling"
the t-shirts, rather than a ban. So presumably if passed it just means
a letter will be sent to the retailers asking them not to sell them,
rather than a legal ban.
| Quote: | Many state Senators will vote for the resolution if it is introduced.
Not that they care about the issue, but they don't want some future
opponent saying "He voted against banning obscene tee shirts".
|
Similar t-shirts are quite common in London. The only time a fuss
has been made about them is a couple of occasions when somewhat
suggestive slogans have appeared on t-shirts sold to young teenagers.
As others have noted, t-shirts which are more explicitly obscene than
those illustrated here are sometimes seen. But I don't think it would
be a legal defence against sexual assault to say "But Your Honour, I
only did what the t-shirt asked me to do".
| Quote: | Abercrombie & Fitch is delighted with the furor. Normally, they have
pay newspapers to feature their offerings. Not only has the issue
provided A&F with some free advertising, but the issue has also
stamped the shirts as "cool". Money in the bank.
|
Of course.
| Quote: | Somewhere out there there's the general public; the average Americans.
The people in this group aren't concerned about the issue, aren't
offended by the tee shirts, and probably don't even notice them.
|
OK, but the thing I don't get here is that you say this politician
is doing this to get votes, yet also that the average American would
not agree with his views. Isn't there any danger that a politician
who becomes notorious for wanting to ban things might lose support
for it?
Matthew Huntbach |
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Maria Conlon
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
Jim Lawton wrote:
| Quote: | Ross Howard wrote:
From <www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=4067918&nav=3w6o>:
[Illinois] State Senator Steve Rauschenberger says he plans to
introduce a resolution in the state Senate this week, calling
on trendy retailer Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling a
line of racy t-shirts.
The Republican, who is a GOP candidate for governor, says the
$24.50 t-shirts are "offensive" and "degrading." He says if
the Senate resolution doesn't stop Abercrombie from selling
its shirts - he'll lead a boycott of the stores.
The 49-year-old state Senator says he doesn't pretend to be
the bellwether of what's cool but he believes the t-shirts
disrespect women.
Some teenage girls across the country also are calling for a
boycott of Abercrombie. The women and girls say the shirts are
degrading, but Abercrombie says plenty of women are buying
them.
So what's all the fuss about?
These: <www.drudgereport.com/af.jpg>.
Good grief, this is a world where people are killing each other,
starving to death, poisoning the planet, and he's worried about a set
of feeble t-shirts?
|
From my soapbox:
This is also a world where AIDS and STDs are serious problems, and
there's no cure as yet. And shall we think about rape, and what might
trigger a rapist? Should any young woman really be wearing a t-shirt
that says "Available for parties" across her breasts? How about "shag me
now" (as mentioned below)? Not all the people who may be reading those
t-shirts are completely sane, you know.
All that aside, maybe Rauschenberger is worried about how stupid and
cheap young women look when wearing t-shirts like that. My old fogey
opinion is that wearing sexually suggestive t-shirts makes a woman[1]
appear to have no self-respect, and no limits, either.
| Quote: | There was a young woman in my local music club the other week with a
t shirt emblazoned with the legend "shag me now" - now that's racey.
|
I feel rather sorry for her. The shirt is probably meant to be funny,
but it isn't, not really. Would you want your daughter -- say, a
daughter between 15 and 20-or-so, wearing one of those t-shirts in
public? Your sister? My guess is that most adult men and women would not
like that idea.
Lest you think otherwise: I am not in favor of legislating morals. I am
not in favor of the government banning certain clothes, books, films,
etc. I *am* in favor of people learning how to act like responsible
adults. And that's got to start with the already-adult among us setting
examples.
BTW, here's another story (from the Nov 2 Newsday) about the A&F t-shirt
issue:
http://tinyurl.com/cd88x
[1] Or girl; whatever the target audience, I'm sure the shirts are sold
to whoever has the wherewithal to buy them.
--
Maria Conlon |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
Maria Conlon wrote:
[...]
What she said, all of it. And if it takes a couple of actions under
obscene publications acts (which I generally disapprove of) to help
make a safer street, then it would be worth my swallowing my
anti-censorship pride.
--
Mike. |
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Ross Howard
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:52:25 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrought:
| Quote: | Maria Conlon wrote:
[...]
What she said, all of it.
|
None of which I've seen yet (or of Tony's reply), unfortunately. Mind
repeating the most relevant bits?
--
Ross Howard |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 14:38:12 GMT, "Maria Conlon" <maria.c-b@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Lawton wrote:
Ross Howard wrote:
From <www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=4067918&nav=3w6o>:
[Illinois] State Senator Steve Rauschenberger says he plans to
introduce a resolution in the state Senate this week, calling
on trendy retailer Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling a
line of racy t-shirts.
The Republican, who is a GOP candidate for governor, says the
$24.50 t-shirts are "offensive" and "degrading." He says if
the Senate resolution doesn't stop Abercrombie from selling
its shirts - he'll lead a boycott of the stores.
The 49-year-old state Senator says he doesn't pretend to be
the bellwether of what's cool but he believes the t-shirts
disrespect women.
Some teenage girls across the country also are calling for a
boycott of Abercrombie. The women and girls say the shirts are
degrading, but Abercrombie says plenty of women are buying
them.
So what's all the fuss about?
These: <www.drudgereport.com/af.jpg>.
Good grief, this is a world where people are killing each other,
starving to death, poisoning the planet, and he's worried about a set
of feeble t-shirts?
From my soapbox:
This is also a world where AIDS and STDs are serious problems, and
there's no cure as yet. And shall we think about rape, and what might
trigger a rapist? Should any young woman really be wearing a t-shirt
that says "Available for parties" across her breasts? How about "shag me
now" (as mentioned below)? Not all the people who may be reading those
t-shirts are completely sane, you know.
All that aside, maybe Rauschenberger is worried about how stupid and
cheap young women look when wearing t-shirts like that. My old fogey
opinion is that wearing sexually suggestive t-shirts makes a woman[1]
appear to have no self-respect, and no limits, either.
There was a young woman in my local music club the other week with a
t shirt emblazoned with the legend "shag me now" - now that's racey.
I feel rather sorry for her. The shirt is probably meant to be funny,
but it isn't, not really. Would you want your daughter -- say, a
daughter between 15 and 20-or-so, wearing one of those t-shirts in
public? Your sister? My guess is that most adult men and women would not
like that idea.
Lest you think otherwise: I am not in favor of legislating morals. I am
not in favor of the government banning certain clothes, books, films,
etc. I *am* in favor of people learning how to act like responsible
adults. And that's got to start with the already-adult among us setting
examples.
|
And lest you think otherwise, I'm not in favour of such t-shirts either, and I
agree with you. However the most powerful style leader is the TV, and that
spirals down into the opportunistic cess pit as fast as it can.
| Quote: |
BTW, here's another story (from the Nov 2 Newsday) about the A&F t-shirt
issue:
http://tinyurl.com/cd88x
[1] Or girl; whatever the target audience, I'm sure the shirts are sold
to whoever has the wherewithal to buy them.
-- |
Jim
the polymoth |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
"Maria Conlon" <maria.c-b@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Understood.
| Quote: | And shall we think about rape, and what might trigger a rapist?
Should any young woman really be wearing a t-shirt that says
"Available for parties" across her breasts? How about "shag me now"
(as mentioned below)?
|
I see absolutely no reason why not.
| Quote: | Not all the people who may be reading those t-shirts are completely
sane, you know.
|
That way, I'd say, lies burqas. There is very little in the way of
women's dress that has not, at one time or another, been said to
"inflame the lust" of men or been dangerous for them to wear, lest
some men consider it an invitation. Naked arms, naked hair, naked
ankles, pants, etc.
If a woman wants to be flirtatious in her dress, I see no problem.
I'd hope that as a society we've gone beyond "She was asking for it,
dressed that way", and I honestly don't think that wearing such a
shirt will make the wearer any more likely to get raped. (She may get
comments due to it, but I sincerely doubt it would put her in any
danger.)
| Quote: | All that aside, maybe Rauschenberger is worried about how stupid and
cheap young women look when wearing t-shirts like that. My old fogey
opinion is that wearing sexually suggestive t-shirts makes a
woman[1] appear to have no self-respect, and no limits, either.
|
That's fine, but I really wouldn't want a legislator to feel that it
was his job to protect people against themselves. If *they* don't
feel it makes them look stupid and cheap, he has no business stopping
them.
Personally, I'd class wearing sexually suggestive t-shirts in with
t-shirts that imply that the wearer likes to drink or bowl or play
golf or watch football or go to church. You don't need to have no
self-respect or no limits to enjoy partying or flirting or even
engaging in casual sex. More than having no self-respect, I'd say
that wearing such slogans can indicate an uncommon degree of self-
acceptance and comfort.
| Quote: | There was a young woman in my local music club the other week with a
t shirt emblazoned with the legend "shag me now" - now that's racey.
I feel rather sorry for her. The shirt is probably meant to be
funny, but it isn't, not really. Would you want your daughter --
say, a daughter between 15 and 20-or-so, wearing one of those
t-shirts in public? Your sister? My guess is that most adult men and
women would not like that idea.
|
I'd guess that most adult men and women with 15-to-20-year-old
daughters are uncomfortable about thinking of them as sexual beings at
all, whether the sexual activity (or hinting at it) takes place in
public or private. I'd hope that if I had a daughter I'd understand
her well enough to be comfortable with the reason she chose to wear
such a shirt if she did.
As for my sister, she's a big girl. But even when she was younger, I
don't think it wouldn have bothered me.
| Quote: | Lest you think otherwise: I am not in favor of legislating morals.
|
Understood.
| Quote: | I am not in favor of the government banning certain clothes, books,
films, etc. I *am* in favor of people learning how to act like
responsible adults. And that's got to start with the already-adult
among us setting examples.
|
while realizing that many of the examples we set would have been
shocking not that long ago and accepting that personal choices that
really don't matter really don't matter. I have no problem with
someone saying "That's inappropriate *here*" on their own property (or
property they've been delegated the right to decide for), but I can't
think of anything that doesn't involve non-consentual harm to somebody
being simply unacceptable. The notion of stores not being allowed to
sell shirts to people who would like to buy them because they have
"sexually suggestive slogans" goes *way* across the line.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Feeling good about government is like
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |looking on the bright side of any
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |catastrophe. When you quit looking
|on the bright side, the catastrophe
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |is still there.
(650)857-7572 | P.J. O'Rourke
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Ross Howard
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Troublesome t-shirts redux |
|
|
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:22:39 +0100, Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com>
wrought:
| Quote: | On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:52:25 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrought:
Maria Conlon wrote:
[...]
What she said, all of it.
None of which I've seen yet (or of Tony's reply), unfortunately. Mind
repeating the most relevant bits?
|
No need. Jim just fixed it.
--
Ross Howard |
|
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|
|
| |
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