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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:55 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> wrote:
Also, are 'The Carrs' some Hibernic singing group, or are you referring to
the beat combo 'The Cars', who are themselves (do they still exist?) from
the Bwahston area?
Bawston, surely.
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Actually Salvatore is right, locals who have that accent say something
like a fast "bo-AH-ston" and a double-you represents that.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:08 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Bertel Lund Hansen <nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
| Quote: | Sara Lorimer skrev:
Bawston, surely.
Wouldn't that be Bawstn?
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In my other post I focussed on the front end of the word, but your "tn"
is right and reminds me that I forgot to think about that end of the
word as well.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Sara Lorimer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Sara Lorimer wrote:
Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> wrote:
Also, are 'The Carrs' some Hibernic singing group, or are you referring to
the beat combo 'The Cars', who are themselves (do they still exist?) from
the Bwahston area?
Bawston, surely.
No, Bwahston. Ask ray o'hara.
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I don't know what accent that is, and I've spent years living in and
near Boston (or, as I say, Bastn)... but I bow to your supperior ear
when it comes to accents.
--
SML
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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: Bostonian "park" and "pack" [was: Re: Jints] |
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Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: | I wouldn't be surprised to learn that nonrhotic
pronunciations of "park" varied somewhat from one Boston
neighborhood to another.
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I'm sure they do.
| Quote: | Maybe in some neighborhoods "park"
didn't sound so much like "pack".
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Consider the Kennedys, with the caveat that Brookline is not in Boston in
the Erkian sense, though it surely is in the Omrudian sense. JFK and RFK
used a less fronted /a/ than I hear from my Eastern Massachusetts
relatives (none of whom are from Erkian Boston either, FTM). Maybe that
was a result of Choate and Harvard and such, maybe not.
| Quote: | I've heard people trying
to imitate Bostonian speech by saying [pA:k j@ kA: In hA:v@d
skwE:] (rather than [pa:k j@ ka: In ha:v@d skwE:]).
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Isn't it canonically "park the car in Harvard Yard"? There's a Harvard
Square in addition to a Harvard Yard, to be sure.
| Quote: | About the man I remember especially, I had a little
disagreement with him on the first day I was at Gallups
Island. I told him he didn't pronounce the "r" in "park".
He indignantly replied that he certainly did. I asked him
to say "pock" and "park" -- or some such pair of words. He
said them and seemed satisfied that he had proved his point.
To me it sounded like [pA:k] and [p&:k]. I tried to
convince him he wasn't pronouncing the "r" at all, but just
changing the sound of the vowel.
He remained unconvinced. I suppose to him changing the
sound of the vowel was the right way to pronounce the "r".
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A weird memory of my own: I remember taunting, at age 9 or so, my
non-rhotic Eastern Mass. cousins with "why don't people from Boston have
a letter 'R'?" or something similar, which is bizarre since, while I was
rhotic, as a Brooklynite and New Yorker probably well over half the
people I encountered (in those days) who were
natives of the inner New York City region were non-rhotic speakers,
including my father (who had the 'linking r' with intrusive r we hear
from most modern BrE speakers, and who also was reliably rhotic for
stressed /R/ as in "bird"). I'd also mention my mother, except she lived
in the Boston region until she was 5 so she may have had some long-term
Boston-region influences on her speech. (I believe she may sometimes if
not always pronounce "don" and "dawn" alike.) Interestingly, it's
only in recent years that I've noticed that my mother has enough
non-rhoticisms in her speech that I can't really accurately call her a
rhotic speaker. At one time, and I think my past AUE postings will show
this, I characterized my mother as a rhotic speaker (and I believe she
would characterize herself as such if she were familiar with the term
'rhotic').
Speaking more generally, I think, and Sparky I'm sure you'd agree with me,
that in reality there's no clear division between rhotic and non-rhotic,
but rather a rhotic/non-rhotic continuum of sorts.
The case of my cousins shows that I was aware of the rhotic/non-rhotic
divide in some way even as a young child, but maybe I was less likely to
perceive it as non-rhoticism (i.e., as "not pronouncing your r's") when
it was done by fellow New York City natives. There's probably something
interesting there for the linguists. |
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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:52 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Pete wrote:
| Quote: | Why are NY Giants called Jints sometimes?
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[I had an earlier post that never appeared for some reason, so here goes
again.]
It's a jokey representation of a New York City pronunciation that was
first attached to the New York baseball Giants. Proquest has examples
from the NY Times back to 1908.
But much earlier than that, there's a cite from 1889 where "Jints"
refers the Cuban Giants, the first professional black baseball team (who
were of course not Cuban). More on them here:
http://www.nlbpa.com/1887_cuban_giants.html
I posted about this on the American Dialect Society mailing list, where
Larry Horn pointed out that "Gints" was originally intended to represent
a monosyllabic pronunciation of "Giants" as [dZaInts] (rhymes with
"pints"). The spelling pronunciation of "Gints" as [dZInts] (rhymes with
"hints") was a later development. |
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Michael Nitabach
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:52 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:dkftol$o1p$1@news.wss.yale.edu:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
You can't say that the singing group "The Carrs" are also known
as the "The Kaws" just because people in Boston say it that way.
Oy! In Boston people say "The Kaahs" [ka:z]. "Kaw" might be said
by some Bostonians, but a word like "core" would be said like
"qua", arguably.
Also, are 'The Carrs' some Hibernic singing group, or are you
referring to the beat combo 'The Cars', who are themselves (do
they still exist?) from the Bwahston area?
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"Beat combo"? The Cars were "New Wave", and have been defunct for at
least 10 years.
--
Mike Nitabach |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:53 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 17:08:02 GMT, Martin Ambuhl
<mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
You can't say that the singing group "The Carrs" are also known as the
"The Kaws" just because people in Boston say it that way.
The Boston-based group was "The Cars." I have not found a group called
"The Carrs." There seems to have been an individual recording artists
of indeterminate genre named "Pat Carrs" and a Celtic Fusion group named
"The Corrs."
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It was an example. The made-up name was used to make the point.
On The Corrs...what is "Celtic fusion"? I have a couple of albums by
"The Corrs", and would classify them as trad. They have done some
cross-over stuff that is a bit more pop, but not like The Sawdoctors
or Horslip or even Moving Hearts.
There is an annual festival called "Celtic Fusion". It brings
together, or fuses, all different types of Irish music.
Andrea Corr, by the way, is a fox. She's been in some movies and in
some TV parts.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Ben Zimmer wrote:
| Quote: | Pete wrote:
I posted about this on the American Dialect Society mailing list, where
Larry Horn pointed out that "Gints" was originally intended to represent
a monosyllabic pronunciation of "Giants" as [dZaInts] (rhymes with
"pints"). The spelling pronunciation of "Gints" as [dZInts] (rhymes with
"hints") was a later development.
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Sorry, read "Jints" for "Gints" above. |
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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:03 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Michael Nitabach wrote:
| Quote: | Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:dkftol$o1p$1@news.wss.yale.edu:
Also, are 'The Carrs' some Hibernic singing group, or are you
referring to the beat combo 'The Cars', who are themselves (do
they still exist?) from the Bwahston area?
"Beat combo"? The Cars were "New Wave", and have been defunct for at
least 10 years.
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That's a little anachronistic joke that Sal/Areff likes to make. Every
rock band is a "beat combo". |
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Michael Nitabach
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:35 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:dkgat4$7tc$1@news.wss.yale.edu:
| Quote: | Michael Nitabach wrote:
Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> wrote in
Also, are 'The Carrs' some Hibernic singing group, or are you
referring to the beat combo 'The Cars', who are themselves (do
they still exist?) from the Bwahston area?
"Beat combo"? The Cars were "New Wave", and have been defunct for
at least 10 years.
Yes, they were a New Wave beat combo.
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Ok.
| Quote: | That's "New Wave" in the
late 1970s US sense, and not the late 1970s BrE sense, though
there may have been some overlap there.
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True on both counts.
How would you characterize "Violent Femmes"? I wouldn't call them
"New Wave", nor "Punk".
--
Mike Nitabach |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:42 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> spake thusly:
| Quote: | Ben Zimmer wrote:
Michael Nitabach wrote:
Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:dkftol$o1p$1@news.wss.yale.edu:
Also, are 'The Carrs' some Hibernic singing group, or are you
referring to the beat combo 'The Cars', who are themselves (do
they still exist?) from the Bwahston area?
"Beat combo"? The Cars were "New Wave", and have been defunct for at
least 10 years.
That's a little anachronistic joke that Sal/Areff likes to make. Every
rock band is a "beat combo".
Although, as someone (the Omrud?) made clear, there's a difference between
"beat music" and rock (and/or rock 'n' roll). The Beatles were a "beat"
combo (hence their name?), while the Rolling Stones were rock.
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It was not I. However, I incline towards some of this opinion. The
Stones were not Rock. They were Rock & Roll. It took a little
longer for Rock to arrive.
| Quote: | I'm not sure I understand the difference, even though there are obvious
stylistic differences between early Beatles and early Stones.
It would be nize to pin this issue down. The notion of a "beat" seems to
have been important to early white rock 'n' roll fans (talking early '50s
here).
And is this "beat" the "rhythm" of rhythm 'n' blues, or a close cousin?
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There are clear differences between (in approximate chronological
order) Rock & Roll, Rhythm & Blues, Rock, Heavy Rock and Progressive
Rock. After that we descend into Punk. "Beat" is not to me a form
of music but a generic term which I would align with hippies and of
course "beatniks" and "beat poets". The Beatles played R&R of
course, especially in the Hanover days, but soon evolved into
Something Else Entirely, which cannot be pigeonholed. The Stones
started out as Rhythm and Blues (they are named after a line in a
Muddy Waters song), evolved into Rock & Roll, had a melodic period
and eventually reverted to something between R&R and R&B
I suspect that the "rhythm" in Rhythm & Blues refers to the band
having a sort of continuo provided by bass and backing guitars.
I should perhaps point out that the term "beat combo" derives in my
mind from an occasion (whether true or apocryphal) in a UK court in
the 1960s. A British judge was hearing a case in which "The
Beatles" were mentioned. "What", asked the judge, "are The
Beatles?" The barrister replied, "A popular beat combo, M'Lud".
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:44 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> spake thusly:
| Quote: | Andrea Corr, by the way, is a fox. She's been in some movies and in
some TV parts.
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Why Andrea? Not that I know which is which, but they all look very
similar to me (excepting Jim).
--
David
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:27 am
Post subject: Bostonian "park" and "pack" [was: Re: Jints] |
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On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:12:22 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
<me@privacy.net> said:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
You can't say that the singing group "The Carrs" are also known as the
"The Kaws" just because people in Boston say it that way.
Oy! In Boston people say "The Kaahs" [ka:z]. "Kaw" might be said by some
Bostonians, but a word like "core" would be said like "qua", arguably.
|
[...]
| Quote: | Of coure, TCE is near-CIC if not CIC, and in the full-fledged Sparkian way
(since it's also FIB). So I can see how you might hear BosE "car" as
"kaw" rather than "kaah", but SparkE seems to see things differently
(Sparky has said, IINM, that he hears no difference between BosE "pack"
and BosE "park" [which are [p&k] and [pa:k] respectively]).
|
Funny how we get a quotation of something we've said and it
doesn't sound right even though it's effectively just what
we said. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't generalize so
much about my inability to distinguish Bostonian "park" and
"pack". My memory of that situation is based on a rather
small sample, two or three Bostonians -- and especially one
-- I talked with during my six months on Gallups Island in
the outer Boston Harbor.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that nonrhotic
pronunciations of "park" varied somewhat from one Boston
neighborhood to another. Maybe in some neighborhoods "park"
didn't sound so much like "pack". I've heard people trying
to imitate Bostonian speech by saying [pA:k j@ kA: In hA:v@d
skwE:] (rather than [pa:k j@ ka: In ha:v@d skwE:]). I
suspect that Tony Cooper, if he does indeed have an
"aw"_equals_"ah" accent, meant [kA:] when he wrote "kaw".
I pronounce "caught", "con", and "Kahn", with the same vowel
(the low back unrounded vowel), and I suppose Tony Cooper
may do the same. Transliterating _NSOED_* notation to
Kirshenbaum ASCII IPA, _NSOED_ has "Kahn [kA:n]", "con
[kA.n]", and "caught [kO:t]", where [A:] is the vowel a lot
of people have in "father", [A.] is the same vowel only
rounded -- which is not to be found in my speech and which I
have heard only in British speech, and [O:] in my dialect
appears only before "r" and is my vowel in "port".
About the man I remember especially, I had a little
disagreement with him on the first day I was at Gallups
Island. I told him he didn't pronounce the "r" in "park".
He indignantly replied that he certainly did. I asked him
to say "pock" and "park" -- or some such pair of words. He
said them and seemed satisfied that he had proved his point.
To me it sounded like [pA:k] and [p&:k]. I tried to
convince him he wasn't pronouncing the "r" at all, but just
changing the sound of the vowel.
He remained unconvinced. I suppose to him changing the
sound of the vowel was the right way to pronounce the "r".
* _NSOED_ is the _New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:03 am
Post subject: Re: Jints |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Bertel Lund Hansen <nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
Sara Lorimer skrev:
Bawston, surely.
Wouldn't that be Bawstn?
In my other post I focussed on the front end of the word, but your
"tn" is right and reminds me that I forgot to think about that end of
the word as well.
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How bout Bwastn?
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Chris Waigl
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:13 am
Post subject: Re: Bostonian "park" and "pack" [was: Re: Jints] |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 23:27:10 +0000, Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: | I pronounce "caught", "con", and "Kahn", with the same vowel
(the low back unrounded vowel), and I suppose Tony Cooper
may do the same. Transliterating _NSOED_* notation to
Kirshenbaum ASCII IPA, _NSOED_ has "Kahn [kA:n]", "con
[kA.n]", and "caught [kO:t]", where [A:] is the vowel a lot
of people have in "father", [A.] is the same vowel only
rounded -- which is not to be found in my speech and which I
have heard only in British speech, and [O:] in my dialect
appears only before "r" and is my vowel in "port".
|
Which vowel do you have in "all"?
(Anecdote: It escaped my notice for years that many Americans don't have
[A.] at all. I mentally re-mapped all the [A:]s in "short" CoC
combinations ("god", "pot", "cot", ...) on [A.].)
Chris Waigl
--
blog: http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
eggcorns: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/
personal blog : just ask for the URL |
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