| Author |
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iando
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:10 pm
Post subject: "dual" number |
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Some nouns such as glasses. trousers, bellows are handled in English
language as if they were separated into two things though they are actually
single obejcts.
Does anyone know how and when these ideas were imported into English
language in its history or any reference about their history?
Thanks
iando
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:10 pm
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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BTW, there is no distinction in present-day BrE between the "dual number"
and the "jewel number". Discuss! |
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Lars Eighner
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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In our last episode,
<newscache$dlodpi$q6k$1@news01f.so-net.ne.jp>, the lovely and
talented iando broadcast on alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | Some nouns such as glasses. trousers, bellows are handled in English
language as if they were separated into two things though they are actually
single obejcts.
Does anyone know how and when these ideas were imported into English
language in its history or any reference about their history?
|
First, English does not have dual nouns in the way that some
other languages (including Japanese if I am correctly informed)
do.
It does have, as you note, some nouns which often or always appear
in the plural and are plural or (sometimes) singular in
construstion. To add to the confusion, most mean exactly the
same thing even when they are preceded by "a pair of." These
nouns do not have much in common so far as their origins are
concerned. The thing that most of them do seem to have in
common are that they are composed of two similar parts that
are joined in one way or another.
In some cases this clear from the word itself. Before plastic
lenses, glasses really had two pieces of glass. It is not so
clear why "spectacles" (meaning "glasses") behaves as it does,
except for its close association with "glasses." "Scissors"
comes from a Latin singular noun meaning roughly "thing to cut
with," and scissors are, you see, two things to cut with that
are joined. "Pant" means "leg covering" and I believe pants
were once separate garments that were fastened together
(likewise, "trousers," "breeches," and the Western American
garment "chaps"). I'm not sure about "bellows" but the
apparently plural form seems to go far back in English.
It is related to the modern word "belly," and the common
sense seems to be "bag" or "like a bag." Perhaps "bellows"
were once constructed of several bags or even of animal bellies
(i.e. stomachs).
In sum, then, there seems to be no etymological relationship
among such words. A few such words have occurred in English so
long as English has been English, but many others have come from
diverse sources at different times. The common factor in such
words seems to be sense: they are composed of two similar parts
more or less permanently joined.
--
Lars Eighner eighner@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
If you can't convince them, confuse them. --Harry S Truman
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izzy
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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Hebrew has a dual case that is used for external body parts that occur
in pairs (eyes, ears, nares (nostrils), lips, hands, feet, wings (of a
bird). The dual case is also used for items associated with those parts
(eyeglasses, pants, socks, shoes).
In English you have only one waist. In Hebrew you have a pair, one on
each side. The Hebrew name for Egypt [MiTZRaiM] is a dual, not because
it had an Upper and Lower kingdom but because it was the waist of
Aphrodite on a Phoenician anthropomorphic (body part) map of north
Africa.
If you are interested in the origin of geographic names (toponyms) in
Asia minor and north Africa, join the BPMaps discussion group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/
and examine the Hermes and Aphrodite databases at that website.
How, when, and why English began pluralizing items that are duals in
Hebrew, I do not know.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
BPMaps moderator |
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The Grammer Genious
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:21 pm
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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izzy <cohen.izzy@gmail.com> wrote
| Quote: | Hebrew has a dual case that is used for external body parts that occur
in pairs ... The dual case is also used for ...
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Hebrew has dual number, not "case." In evolving from its Semitic prototype,
Hebrew lost its grammatical case (which Arabic still has). |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:04 pm
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | "Scissors"
comes from a Latin singular noun meaning roughly "thing to cut
with," and scissors are, you see, two things to cut with that
are joined. [...]
|
To add, re scissors. Roman scissors (_forfices_) really were a pair:
they don't seem to have thought of joining them with a pivot. Our
word comes from a plural word the French don't use any more, based on
a Latin word we can't quite prove the Romans used. Modern French
scissors borrow the plural of the French word for "chisel". Many
Welsh people still use the form, now obsolete in England, "a
scissors".
--
Mike. |
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Steve MacGregor
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:18 pm
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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izzy wrote:
| Quote: | Hebrew has a dual case that is used for external body parts that occur
in pairs (eyes, ears, nares (nostrils), lips, hands, feet, wings (of a
bird). The dual case is also used for items associated with those parts
(eyeglasses, pants, socks, shoes).
|
Close: dual is a =number=, not a =case=.
Sentences with dual nouns as subjects have plural verbs.
Any guess why the words for "water" (mayyim) and "heaven" (shamayyim)
are dual?
--
Stefano
"Ladies do not belch, sweat, or fart, so they must bitch, lest they
explde." |
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The Grammer Genious
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:37 pm
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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Steve MacGregor <esperantujo@yahoo.com> wrote
| Quote: | ...
Any guess why the words for "water" (mayyim) and "heaven" (shamayyim)
are dual?
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What's weird is that the word for the number "two" (shnayyim/shtayyim) is
the semitic root for "two" plus a dual ending, which means it ought to mean
"four". |
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Maria Conlon
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:38 am
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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Areff wrote:
[something]
It's good to see you back here, but what have you done with Sal?
(Are *you* a "dual number"?)
Tootsie |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:46 am
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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"Areff" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:dkdd8j$gdt$1@chessie.cirr.com...
| Quote: | BTW, there is no distinction in present-day BrE between the "dual number"
and the "jewel number". Discuss!
|
There are still a few of us who like to distinguish "due" and "dew" from
"Jew", and "dual" and "duel" from "jewel". But perhaps we're too old to be
speakers of present-day BrE.
Alan Jones |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:46:51 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrought:
| Quote: |
"Areff" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:dkdd8j$gdt$1@chessie.cirr.com...
BTW, there is no distinction in present-day BrE between the "dual number"
and the "jewel number". Discuss!
There are still a few of us who like to distinguish "due" and "dew" from
"Jew", and "dual" and "duel" from "jewel". But perhaps we're too old to be
speakers of present-day BrE.
|
Jew really think so?
--
Ross Howard |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:19 am
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> spake thusly:
| Quote: | Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
"Scissors"
comes from a Latin singular noun meaning roughly "thing to cut
with," and scissors are, you see, two things to cut with that
are joined. [...]
To add, re scissors. Roman scissors (_forfices_) really were a pair:
they don't seem to have thought of joining them with a pivot. Our
word comes from a plural word the French don't use any more, based on
a Latin word we can't quite prove the Romans used.
|
Is "ciseaux" obsolete? See, I was taught French by a 60 year old man
in the 1970s, who probably learned it pre-war from somebody who'd
been born in the 19th century, so I could be a little out of date.
There are a few hundred thousand hits for it though, e.g. this, which
looks like a modern pair:
http://tinyurl.com/8zwnx
| Quote: | Modern French
scissors borrow the plural of the French word for "chisel".
|
burins? I've not heard that.
| Quote: | Many
Welsh people still use the form, now obsolete in England, "a
scissors".
|
That's because the word is singular in Welsh, but isn't it "a
scissor"?
--
David
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Isabelle Cecchini
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:59 am
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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the Omrud a écrit :
| Quote: | Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> spake thusly:
Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
"Scissors"
comes from a Latin singular noun meaning roughly "thing to cut
with," and scissors are, you see, two things to cut with that
are joined. [...]
To add, re scissors. Roman scissors (_forfices_) really were a pair:
they don't seem to have thought of joining them with a pivot. Our
word comes from a plural word the French don't use any more, based on
a Latin word we can't quite prove the Romans used.
Is "ciseaux" obsolete?
|
Not at all. The problem is that while "scissors" and "ciseaux" sound
suspiciously alike, the one isn't really the etymological grandson of
the other.
"Scissors" finds its ancestry in French "cisoires".
| Quote: | See, I was taught French by a 60 year old man
in the 1970s, who probably learned it pre-war from somebody who'd
been born in the 19th century, so I could be a little out of date.
There are a few hundred thousand hits for it though, e.g. this, which
looks like a modern pair:
http://tinyurl.com/8zwnx
Modern French
scissors borrow the plural of the French word for "chisel".
burins? I've not heard that.
|
No, no! Not a "burin", but a "ciseau", coming from Old French "cisel",
which modern English "chisel" comes from.
"Ciseau", in the singular, is still used in modern French, and is used
with a hammer, whereas a "burin" is used with the sheer strength of the
hand. Unless it's the other way round.
| Quote: |
Many
Welsh people still use the form, now obsolete in England, "a
scissors".
That's because the word is singular in Welsh, but isn't it "a
scissor"?
|
--
Isabelle Cecchini |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle.cecchini@wanaNOSPAM.invalid> spake
thusly:
| Quote: | the Omrud a écrit :
Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> spake thusly:
Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
"Scissors"
comes from a Latin singular noun meaning roughly "thing to cut
with," and scissors are, you see, two things to cut with that
are joined. [...]
To add, re scissors. Roman scissors (_forfices_) really were a pair:
they don't seem to have thought of joining them with a pivot. Our
word comes from a plural word the French don't use any more, based on
a Latin word we can't quite prove the Romans used.
Is "ciseaux" obsolete?
Not at all. The problem is that while "scissors" and "ciseaux" sound
suspiciously alike, the one isn't really the etymological grandson of
the other.
|
Oh dear, I always took it for granted.
| Quote: | "Scissors" finds its ancestry in French "cisoires".
See, I was taught French by a 60 year old man
in the 1970s, who probably learned it pre-war from somebody who'd
been born in the 19th century, so I could be a little out of date.
There are a few hundred thousand hits for it though, e.g. this, which
looks like a modern pair:
http://tinyurl.com/8zwnx
Modern French
scissors borrow the plural of the French word for "chisel".
burins? I've not heard that.
No, no! Not a "burin", but a "ciseau", coming from Old French "cisel",
which modern English "chisel" comes from.
"Ciseau", in the singular, is still used in modern French, and is used
with a hammer, whereas a "burin" is used with the sheer strength of the
hand. Unless it's the other way round.
|
Thanks. I continue to learn.
--
David
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Weatherlawyer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:23 am
Post subject: Re: "dual" number |
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Lars Eighner wrote:
| Quote: |
First, English does not have dual nouns in the way that some other languages
(including Japanese if I am correctly informed) do.
If binoculars refer to bi occular telescopes where did the "n" come |
from? |
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