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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:37 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 23:25:40 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
<me@privacy.net> wrought:
| Quote: | In the past the curious topic of "purple" has been discussed here. The
strange thing about purple is that there's an official understanding of
purple, and then there's an arguably more common informal AmE
understanding of purple which corresponds closely to the Crayola notion of
"violet", purple proper (formal purple) being a much redder color than
what most Americans think of as purple most of the time.
Today I attended a talk by a fellow with a British accent and he pointed
to a Powerpoint slide thingie that had an illustration with a big area of
purple (in the informal AmE sense of Crayola violet). This British fellow
referred to that as "the blue area".
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Is Crayola violet the same as the Princeian purple of *Purple Rain*?
If so, that's usually "purple" in BrE too, although you may also find
the bluer end of its range being called "mauve" by the sort of people
who use small porcelain milk jugs and really miss John Major.
--
Ross Howard
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Jitze Couperus
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:18 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:35:36 -0000, msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
| Quote: | Richard Fontana:
Now I also know that roses are red and violets are blue, as the ancient
rhyme goes, but that's a whole nother issue. Crayola violet is purple; is
it blue in Britain?
Chris Waigl:
I have no idea, but it might help to have some visual representation of
the colours in question. The Wikipedia article for "Crayola" supplies
this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crayola> ...
If there's any color that a mechanism using RGB or a similar color model
-- whether via 4-color printing, color film, TV, or computer monitors --
is *least* likely to reproduce correctly, it's violet. Think about it.
If you want a reliable standard of comparison, you need to talk about
physical objects instead. Richard had the right idea by bringing crayons
into it, and other people by mentioning flowers.
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There *is* sort of a standard - where named colors are equated to
RGB values - at least as defined for the Web as
"named entities" - to be used only if your boss insists because
he is anal about using "unsafe" colors on web-pages (outside the
supported gamut) and won't allow you to use the more typical
Hex RGB notation in your code.
I have them all displayed (in alphabetical order of name) on a page at
http://couperus.home.mindspring.com/colors.htm
Purple and Violet are both shown there and correspond roughly
with what I think those colors are. But there are some where I
fear the people who wrote the standard differ with me.
Frexample, what they have defined as "Deepskyblue"
is to laugh at.
Jitze |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:19 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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William <william@lowerknowle.com> spake thusly:
No. AIUI the Purple Heart is awarded to every US serviceman wounded
in action.
The Victoria Cross is the highest award for bravery in action. Very
few are awarded - there was one this year, but it made the front
pages of the papers and the main news bulletins; the previous half-
dozen VCs were awarded in 1982 and 1969. Only about a dozen holders
of the VC are currently alive.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:47 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:18:17 GMT, couperus-eschew-this@znet.com (Jitze Couperus)
wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:35:36 -0000, msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
Richard Fontana:
Now I also know that roses are red and violets are blue, as the ancient
rhyme goes, but that's a whole nother issue. Crayola violet is purple; is
it blue in Britain?
Chris Waigl:
I have no idea, but it might help to have some visual representation of
the colours in question. The Wikipedia article for "Crayola" supplies
this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crayola> ...
If there's any color that a mechanism using RGB or a similar color model
-- whether via 4-color printing, color film, TV, or computer monitors --
is *least* likely to reproduce correctly, it's violet. Think about it.
If you want a reliable standard of comparison, you need to talk about
physical objects instead. Richard had the right idea by bringing crayons
into it, and other people by mentioning flowers.
There *is* sort of a standard - where named colors are equated to
RGB values - at least as defined for the Web as
"named entities" - to be used only if your boss insists because
he is anal about using "unsafe" colors on web-pages (outside the
supported gamut) and won't allow you to use the more typical
Hex RGB notation in your code.
I have them all displayed (in alphabetical order of name) on a page at
http://couperus.home.mindspring.com/colors.htm
Purple and Violet are both shown there and correspond roughly
with what I think those colors are. But there are some where I
fear the people who wrote the standard differ with me.
Frexample, what they have defined as "Deepskyblue"
is to laugh at.
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Yes, I nearly wet myself. Hmmm. But you're right - especially when "medium blue"
is so much more the go. Clearly they mean a deeper version of their "sky blue".
They don't mean the colour of a decent deep blue sky.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:54 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:18:17 GMT, couperus-eschew-this@znet.com (Jitze
Couperus) wrought:
| Quote: | On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:35:36 -0000, msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
Richard Fontana:
Now I also know that roses are red and violets are blue, as the ancient
rhyme goes, but that's a whole nother issue. Crayola violet is purple; is
it blue in Britain?
Chris Waigl:
I have no idea, but it might help to have some visual representation of
the colours in question. The Wikipedia article for "Crayola" supplies
this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crayola> ...
If there's any color that a mechanism using RGB or a similar color model
-- whether via 4-color printing, color film, TV, or computer monitors --
is *least* likely to reproduce correctly, it's violet. Think about it.
If you want a reliable standard of comparison, you need to talk about
physical objects instead. Richard had the right idea by bringing crayons
into it, and other people by mentioning flowers.
There *is* sort of a standard - where named colors are equated to
RGB values - at least as defined for the Web as
"named entities" - to be used only if your boss insists because
he is anal about using "unsafe" colors on web-pages (outside the
supported gamut) and won't allow you to use the more typical
Hex RGB notation in your code.
I have them all displayed (in alphabetical order of name) on a page at
http://couperus.home.mindspring.com/colors.htm
Purple and Violet are both shown there and correspond roughly
with what I think those colors are. But there are some where I
fear the people who wrote the standard differ with me.
Frexample, what they have defined as "Deepskyblue"
is to laugh at.
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Maybe I need to reset my monitor, but some of those look dead wrong to
me:
- My chartreuse would be much darker.
- I'd lump all the aqua, aquamarine and the like under "turquoise"
(using "greenish" and "bluish") to distinguish shades.
- I'd call all the fawn shades "beige" -- except what is called beige
there, which I'd call "champagne".
- Alice blue: I'd call that "blue rinse", or perhaps "mint imperial".
- Brown: That's my reddish-brown or russet; my basic brown is far less
red -- the colour of most milk chocolate, for example.
- Chocolate: That's my "burnt orange".
At this point I thought it best to give up and hunt for a calibration
chart to reset my monitor.
--
Ross Howard |
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Lars Eighner
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:59 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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In our last episode,
<11mgk18adcp8b5c@corp.supernews.com>,
the lovely and talented Mark Brader
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | Richard Fontana:
Now I also know that roses are red and violets are blue, as the ancient
rhyme goes, but that's a whole nother issue. Crayola violet is purple; is
it blue in Britain?
Chris Waigl:
I have no idea, but it might help to have some visual representation of
the colours in question. The Wikipedia article for "Crayola" supplies
this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crayola> ...
If there's any color that a mechanism using RGB or a similar color model
-- whether via 4-color printing, color film, TV, or computer monitors --
is *least* likely to reproduce correctly, it's violet.
|
I'm not so sure that is so in RGB. There are many shades in
that range, although what you might call any of them is an
issue. What RGB doesn't have is a good orange.
| Quote: | Think about it.
If you want a reliable standard of comparison, you need to talk about
physical objects instead. Richard had the right idea by bringing crayons
into it, and other people by mentioning flowers.
|
--
Lars Eighner eighner@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
"Some books are undeservedly forgotten, none are undeservedly remembered."
--W. H. Auden |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:49 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
gardening catalogues: really blue flowers are important to me, and
I
get summarily pissed off when these cataloguistas try to mislead
me.
Anemone blanda comes forcibly to mind.
Do you grow blue flax, _Linum perenne_? In England, it would need
excellent drainage, no watering, maybe some lime, and any sun
exposure
(BrE "full sun" = NewMexE "partial shade"). I'm not an expert, but
I've never heard anyone suggest that it's any color but pure blue.
[...] |
It grows fine here, in full sun, as you say; but it's very
short-lived, so there's a continuity problem.
--
Mike. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:57 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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PR wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | I understand there's even a true blue Himalayan poppy out there
somewhere, but I've never enjoyed the good fortune of seeing one.
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They're stunningly beautiful, but they're swine. _Meconopsis
baileyi_. You grow them from seed, and the ones that germinate raise
your hopes, and you have force yourself to nip off the first year's
buds, and then half of them are the wrong shade, and then they die
anyway. Worth the effort if you've got lime-free soil which never
either dries out or gets waterlogged, in a rather shady spot, and the
patience of Job.
--
Mike. |
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PR
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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Lars Eighner:
| Quote: | Chris Waigl:
If there's any color that a mechanism using RGB or a similar color model
-- whether via 4-color printing, color film, TV, or computer monitors --
is *least* likely to reproduce correctly, it's violet.
I'm not so sure that is so in RGB. There are many shades in
that range, although what you might call any of them is an
issue. What RGB doesn't have is a good orange.
|
I'd agree with both of you, and orange and purple are also the hardest
colors to reproduce in printing. I used to design for a company whose main
logo color was a deep blue violet. Murder on the press! A few degrees of
screen percentage one way or the other and it would flip to blue or fuchsia.
Pantone came out with the Hexachrome color system a few years ago, which
added bright orange and bright green inks to the standard C(yan) M(agenta)
Y(ellow) (blac)K color model. It was supposed to increase the fidelity of
those colors. No one used it, though. |
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PR
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:24 pm
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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Jitze:
| Quote: | There *is* sort of a standard - where named colors are equated to
RGB values - at least as defined for the Web as
"named entities" - to be used only if your boss insists because
he is anal about using "unsafe" colors on web-pages (outside the
supported gamut) and won't allow you to use the more typical
Hex RGB notation in your code.
I have them all displayed (in alphabetical order of name) on a page...
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Wow, so many of those are *completely* wrong to me! Since we were talking
about purple & violet orignially, though, I'll try to limit myself to those.
That "violet" isn't violet --- it's candy pink! What they have termed
"indigo" there is the closest to violet that I can see.
There was no representation in the whole thing of what I think of as
chartreuse.
Some of the less usual ones were actually pretty good. "Thistle" and
"blanchedalmond" come to mind. |
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William
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:20 am
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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Mark Brader wrote:
| Quote: | Joe Fineman:
the Purple Heart (the
U.S. equivalent of the Iron Cross -- what is it in Britain?).
William H.:
Victoria Cross
The nearest US equivalent of the Victoria Cross would be the
("Congressional") Medal of Honor.
I have no idea about the Iron Cross.
|
I very nearly put a question mark after my previous response. Clearly I
should have done so.
I had always imagined that the Purple Heart was awarded for
"conspicuous gallantry", "an act of extreme bravery" or some such, but
I have now read further. I don't know if there is an exact match
amongst the UK panoply of medals, but if there is, it will probably be
found on this page:
http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/gallantry.htm
--
WH |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:01 am
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
gardening catalogues: really blue flowers are important to me, and
I
get summarily pissed off when these cataloguistas try to mislead
me.
Anemone blanda comes forcibly to mind.
Do you grow blue flax, _Linum perenne_? In England, it would need
excellent drainage, no watering, maybe some lime, and any sun
exposure
(BrE "full sun" = NewMexE "partial shade"). I'm not an expert, but
I've never heard anyone suggest that it's any color but pure blue.
[...]
It grows fine here, in full sun, as you say; but it's very
short-lived, so there's a continuity problem.
|
It lives only a few years here, but it spreads by re-seeding. That's
what you get for growing it outside its native climate. There is *no
need* to be jealous, considering how many easy garden flowers need
luxurious amounts of water here or don't grow at all.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:10 am
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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PR wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" wrote:
There are indeed Brits who think purple's a kind of blue.
I dislike it most in gardening catalogues: really blue
flowers are important to me, and I
get summarily pissed off when these cataloguistas try to mislead me.
Anemone blanda comes forcibly to mind.
I know what you mean. It happens in the US too. It's also fun when even the
photo itself shows a purple flower, which is called blue in the description
or named 'Blue something.'
For true blues I recommend flax (linum perenne), blue delphinium, blue
columbine (I'm from Colorado; is it a rarety elsewhere?),
.... |
Easily available in New Mexico, of course, and I could mention an
on-line source for North America. But I've seen wild ones here that
looked a bit purplish to me. Unfortunately where I live is too hot for
Colorado columbines, which might be the most beautiful flower of the
temperate zones, but I do get to grow some of the other candidates for
MBFOTTZ.
Oh, okay, since you're dying to know, golden-spurred columbine
(_Aquilegia chrysantha_), _Mentzelia decapetala_, _Datura wrightii_
(syn. _meteloides_), and maybe my cardinal flower (_Lobelia
cardinalis_) in a container will work.
| Quote: | morning glories
(ipomoea tricolor), Siberian squill (scilla siberica), lobelia, and
bachelor's button (centaurea cyanus). And of course Photoshopped versions of
other flowers, such as tulips.
|
Heh.
There is a blue-and-white tulip, you know--_T. humilis alba coerulea_.
Small but attractive. It looks true blue to me, but it might be just a
tad purplish.
--
Jerry Friedman enjoys a good self-indulgence in the off-topic. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:38 am
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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William wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | I had always imagined that the Purple Heart was awarded for
"conspicuous gallantry", "an act of extreme bravery" or some such,
but
I have now read further. I don't know if there is an exact match
amongst the UK panoply of medals, but if there is, it will probably
be
found on this page:
http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/gallantry.htm
|
There used to be wound stripes for a time, but now the only
recompense is survival if you're lucky.
A neat little very British touch, now long abolished, used to be that
the VC ribbon was red for soldiers (who wore red coats) and dark blue
for sailors. I suppose there must have been complaints from the
ever-modest Black Mafia and green-clad Australians.
I think I've sounded off before about Canada's well-meant translation
of the VC motto "For Valour" into "Pro Valore", which in my Latin
means "For Value". Can we look forward to the Montreal branch of Lidl
copping the honour at the next royal visit?
The George Cross, by the way, ranks with the VC, but civilians,
including once the whole island of Malta, can get it.
--
Mike. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:20 am
Post subject: Re: AmE "Purple" (CrayE "Violet") = BrE "Blue"? |
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PR filted:
| Quote: |
Pantone came out with the Hexachrome color system a few years ago, which
added bright orange and bright green inks to the standard C(yan) M(agenta)
Y(ellow) (blac)K color model. It was supposed to increase the fidelity of
those colors. No one used it, though.
|
"Adult Swim", on the Cartoon Network, uses it when they display program
schedules during stationbreaks...they're forever annotating listings with "new
episodes Pantone this" and "series debuts Pantone that"....
They also play background music from the subcontinent during some breaks, and a
small caption at the bottom of the slide reads "all times and music
Eastern"....r |
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