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Message |
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Dear members:
I am getting confused to distinguish "I don't believe you" and I don't
trust you" in AMerican English. A friend of mine tells me that I should
use " I don't belive you" since it is more polite and it means that I
don't belive him just in this situation while " I don't trust you"
implies that I don't believe him since he is a liar.
Plz confirm this for me. because I oftern hear Americans say " I don't
trust you" and it seems more popular.
Thanks
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Vija Khara:
| Quote: | I am getting confused to distinguish "I don't believe you" and I don't
trust you" in AMerican English. A friend of mine tells me that I should
use " I don't belive you" since it is more polite ...
|
Neither one is polite. "I don't trust you" is stronger -- it means
something like "I think you would lie, or steal, or make false promises,
or other things like that."
"I don't believe you" basically means "I think you are lying", but it
might include the possibility that one of you is simply mistaken. If
you wanted to explicitly include that possibility, though, you'd say
"I don't believe that" (where "that" refers to what the person just
said) or something still softer like "Well, I have trouble believing
that. Why do you think so?"
--
Mark Brader | lying
Toronto | abort reply.
msb@vex.net | -- random words at end of a spam message
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On 30 Oct 2005 18:30:58 -0800, VijaKhara@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Dear members:
I am getting confused to distinguish "I don't believe you" and I don't
trust you" in AMerican English. A friend of mine tells me that I should
use " I don't belive you" since it is more polite and it means that I
don't belive him just in this situation while " I don't trust you"
implies that I don't believe him since he is a liar.
Plz confirm this for me. because I oftern hear Americans say " I don't
trust you" and it seems more popular.
Neither of your statements is polite. "I don't believe you" means |
that you think the person is lying in a specific statement, and "I
don't trust you" means you believe the person will lie about anything.
If you don't want to insult someone, but you don't feel what they are
saying is true, then say "I don't think that statement is true". In
other words, challenge the statement itself but not the veracity of
the speaker.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Mark Brader wrote:
| Quote: | Vija Khara:
I am getting confused to distinguish "I don't believe you" and I don't
trust you" in AMerican English. A friend of mine tells me that I should
use " I don't belive you" since it is more polite ...
Neither one is polite. "I don't trust you" is stronger -- it means
something like "I think you would lie, or steal, or make false promises,
or other things like that."
"I don't believe you" basically means "I think you are lying", but it
might include the possibility that one of you is simply mistaken. If
you wanted to explicitly include that possibility, though, you'd say
"I don't believe that" (where "that" refers to what the person just
said) or something still softer like "Well, I have trouble believing
that. Why do you think so?"
|
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
TOF |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:32 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:58:45 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On 30 Oct 2005 18:30:58 -0800, VijaKhara@gmail.com wrote:
Dear members:
I am getting confused to distinguish "I don't believe you" and I don't
trust you" in AMerican English. A friend of mine tells me that I should
use " I don't belive you" since it is more polite and it means that I
don't belive him just in this situation while " I don't trust you"
implies that I don't believe him since he is a liar.
Plz confirm this for me. because I oftern hear Americans say " I don't
trust you" and it seems more popular.
Neither of your statements is polite. "I don't believe you" means
that you think the person is lying in a specific statement, and "I
don't trust you" means you believe the person will lie about anything.
|
I agree, but what is and isn't polite can be tricky. You can say "I
don't believe you" in some situations in a way that the listener will
understand to be I don't believe you on this particular point. No
problemo.
| Quote: | If you don't want to insult someone, but you don't feel what they are
saying is true, then say "I don't think that statement is true". In
other words, challenge the statement itself but not the veracity of
the speaker.
|
Is Donna's memorable "Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong" challenging a
statement or insulting the person who made it? It could be taken
either way, but I'd think the former in most cases.
Similarly, when I say to you, as I often find it necessary to do,
"Dead wrong, Coop", I'm not insulting you, I'm only questioning the
accuracy of one of your statements.
--
Charles Riggs |
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John Holmes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:04 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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The Other Fran wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Brader wrote:
Vija Khara:
I am getting confused to distinguish "I don't believe you" and I
don't trust you" in AMerican English. A friend of mine tells me
that I should use " I don't belive you" since it is more polite ...
Neither one is polite. "I don't trust you" is stronger -- it means
something like "I think you would lie, or steal, or make false
promises, or other things like that."
"I don't believe you" basically means "I think you are lying", but it
might include the possibility that one of you is simply mistaken. If
you wanted to explicitly include that possibility, though, you'd say
"I don't believe that" (where "that" refers to what the person just
said) or something still softer like "Well, I have trouble believing
that. Why do you think so?"
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
|
And it is often also used in mock disbelief to express surprise.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:42 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:32:59 +0000, Charles Riggs <chriggs@éircom.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:58:45 GMT, Tony Cooper
tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
On 30 Oct 2005 18:30:58 -0800, VijaKhara@gmail.com wrote:
Dear members:
I am getting confused to distinguish "I don't believe you" and I don't
trust you" in AMerican English. A friend of mine tells me that I should
use " I don't belive you" since it is more polite and it means that I
don't belive him just in this situation while " I don't trust you"
implies that I don't believe him since he is a liar.
Plz confirm this for me. because I oftern hear Americans say " I don't
trust you" and it seems more popular.
Neither of your statements is polite. "I don't believe you" means
that you think the person is lying in a specific statement, and "I
don't trust you" means you believe the person will lie about anything.
I agree, but what is and isn't polite can be tricky. You can say "I
don't believe you" in some situations in a way that the listener will
understand to be I don't believe you on this particular point. No
problemo.
If you don't want to insult someone, but you don't feel what they are
saying is true, then say "I don't think that statement is true". In
other words, challenge the statement itself but not the veracity of
the speaker.
Is Donna's memorable "Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong" challenging a
statement or insulting the person who made it? It could be taken
either way, but I'd think the former in most cases.
Similarly, when I say to you, as I often find it necessary to do,
"Dead wrong, Coop", I'm not insulting you, I'm only questioning the
accuracy of one of your statements.
|
My advice was to the general, and not to the specific. What can be
said without offending between friends or people who regularly
converse with each other is quite different that what can be said
politely to the world at large.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) writes:
| Quote: | Vija Khara:
I am getting confused to distinguish "I don't believe you" and I
don't trust you" in AMerican English. A friend of mine tells me
that I should use " I don't belive you" since it is more polite ...
Neither one is polite. "I don't trust you" is stronger -- it means
something like "I think you would lie, or steal, or make false
promises, or other things like that."
"I don't believe you" basically means "I think you are lying", but
it might include the possibility that one of you is simply mistaken.
If you wanted to explicitly include that possibility, though, you'd
say "I don't believe that" (where "that" refers to what the person
just said)
|
Yes. There's also the difference between "I don't believe you" and "I
don't believe that" of the former implying "I might have believed it
if it had been said by someone else, but you just don't have enough
credibility."
| Quote: | or something still softer like "Well, I have trouble believing that.
Why do you think so?"
|
The standard softer form around here seems to be "I'm not sure I can
buy that", which connotes "I'm trying to believe you, but I just
can't; perhaps if you gave me more evidence". But which, of course,
often actually means "I think that what you said is complete and utter
bullshit."
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A little government and a little luck
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |are necessary in life, but only a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fool trusts either of them.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: | The Other Fran wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
In my experience, the exasperated cry is "I don't [or "can't"] believe
*this*." Or possibly "I don't believe you're doing that." But not "I
don't believe you." In more than six decades of speaking English in
various parts of the US, I can't recall ever hearing "I don't believe
you" as an expression of exasperation with a person.
YMMV.
Children must be a lot more attentive in the US then.
No, Fran. The expression you describe as an exasperated cry ("I don't
believe you") is not so used in the US, at least if my experience is
any guide. That's what I said.
|
Indeed, and I didn't contradict your claim. There was no sense in which
I was lampooning.
Of course, there's just the teensy possibility that the phrase, as I
have heard it uttered here may also be uttered in the US. We do share a
similar culture, and even if this is a rare variation, it's probably
worth menthioning.
| Quote: | As I also pointed out, we do have
expressions for such use; I gave some.
|
That's what this group is for.
| Quote: | If anyone else gives a
fraction of a damn, perhaps we'll get some additional info.
|
I look forward to it.
| Quote: | It may be that you were trying to be funny. If so, it escaped me.
|
No, not really. Perhaps a little wry.
| Quote: | I
took you as having missed the point.
|
I can hardly correct what you apprehended. I would discourage you from
persisting in the view however. Initially, I was trying to add to what
Mark Brader had offered, which was most directly on point.
When you responded, signing off with "I can't believe I'm replying to
this thread", I tried to respond in the same tone. Perhaps that was
what you missed.
| Quote: | Feel free to correct me if I was
wrong.
--
Bob Lieblich
Sympathizing with Skitt and Tony
|
But do they warrant sympathy, and if so, on what basis? How, and to
what extent are they suffering?
It's one thing to object to the style of my posts. Such objections can
start useful discussions. I'd be surprised if Tony or Skitt were
suffering in any of the usual senses.
Feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood you.
TOF |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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The Other Fran wrote:
| Quote: |
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
In my experience, the exasperated cry is "I don't [or "can't"] believe
*this*." Or possibly "I don't believe you're doing that." But not "I
don't believe you." In more than six decades of speaking English in
various parts of the US, I can't recall ever hearing "I don't believe
you" as an expression of exasperation with a person.
YMMV.
Children must be a lot more attentive in the US then.
|
No, Fran. The expression you describe as an exasperated cry ("I don't
believe you") is not so used in the US, at least if my experience is
any guide. That's what I said. As I also pointed out, we do have
expressions for such use; I gave some. If anyone else gives a
fraction of a damn, perhaps we'll get some additional info.
It may be that you were trying to be funny. If so, it escaped me. I
took you as having missed the point. Feel free to correct me if I was
wrong.
--
Bob Lieblich
Sympathizing with Skitt and Tony |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
| Quote: | Out of curiosity, I googled:
http://hem.passagen.se/obrecht/backpages/chords/04_anotherside/i_dont_believe_you.htm
This track, by Bob Dylan in 1964 does seem to be using this particular
sense of "I don't believe you".
Here is an extract of some of the lyrics:
||||
If I didn't have to guess
I'd gladly confess
To anything I might've tried
If I was with her too long
Or have done something wrong
I wish she'd tell me what it is, I'll run and hide
Though the night ran swirling and whirling
I remember her whispering yet
But evidently she don't
evidently she won't
She just acts like we never have met.
|
I can't make much sense of this, and I note it doesn't have "I don't
believe you" in it. Also, it's entirely in the third person. Is the
"she" he's talking about the "you" of the title? And isn't it
plausible that if they are the same person, he's taking about what
she's stating through her inaction and saying he doesn't believe it?
Anyway, invoking Bob Dylan to support an argument that something is a
standard locution is a bit like invoking Dylan Thomas -- they don't
use English the way us ordinary folk do.
But if it comforts you, Fran, feel free to clutch it to your bosom.
--
Bob Lieblich
Who's still waiting for the returs from other precincts |
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On 31 Oct 2005 18:25:24 -0800, "The Other Fran"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
It's one thing to object to the style of my posts. Such objections can
start useful discussions. I'd be surprised if Tony or Skitt were
suffering in any of the usual senses.
No physical distress, no. My teeth don't even hurt.
|
I'm glad. It has never been my intent to cause suffering in others.
| Quote: | However, I'm not at all sure what the "usual" senses include. I often
suffer from bemusement when faced with simple things expressed in a
complicated way because I don't understand why the writer chose to
encase a kernel of thought in an almost impenetrable shell.
|
I suppose bemusement could amount to suffering for some. Some people,
of course, do cryptic crosswords and jigsaw puzzles for fun.
It's not my aim to confuse you or anyone. I'm fallible, which here
means that I post with one set of assumptions about how it will be
interpreted, and find people complaining that it means something else.
I usually spend a little time working out whether such people are
simply being perverse, or whether their objections are sound.
Despite my remarks in the thread above, I believe Skitt has a point. I
could have used commas more judiciously and designed the paragraph so
as to separate direct claims from parenthetic remarks. So yes, the post
might have been better composed.
I don't believe that the kernel in this case was hidden as to defeat
quite modest attempts to get it by those possessed of your sagacity,
Tony.
Ditto Skitt and Bob.
Fran |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | "The Other Fran" wrote:
It's one thing to object to the style of my posts. Such objections
can start useful discussions. I'd be surprised if Tony or Skitt were
suffering in any of the usual senses.
No physical distress, no. My teeth don't even hurt.
However, I'm not at all sure what the "usual" senses include. I often
suffer from bemusement when faced with simple things expressed in a
complicated way because I don't understand why the writer chose to
encase a kernel of thought in an almost impenetrable shell.
|
When I have to read a long sentence more than three times to figure out
*exactly* what was meant, I suffer a little and think that life is too short
for that. That's why sometimes I skip reading the rest of the post.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On 31 Oct 2005 18:25:24 -0800, "The Other Fran"
<fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | It's one thing to object to the style of my posts. Such objections can
start useful discussions. I'd be surprised if Tony or Skitt were
suffering in any of the usual senses.
No physical distress, no. My teeth don't even hurt. |
However, I'm not at all sure what the "usual" senses include. I often
suffer from bemusement when faced with simple things expressed in a
complicated way because I don't understand why the writer chose to
encase a kernel of thought in an almost impenetrable shell.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: | The Other Fran wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
In my experience, the exasperated cry is "I don't [or "can't"] believe
*this*." Or possibly "I don't believe you're doing that." But not "I
don't believe you." In more than six decades of speaking English in
various parts of the US, I can't recall ever hearing "I don't believe
you" as an expression of exasperation with a person.
YMMV.
Children must be a lot more attentive in the US then.
No, Fran. The expression you describe as an exasperated cry ("I don't
believe you") is not so used in the US, at least if my experience is
any guide. That's what I said. As I also pointed out, we do have
expressions for such use; I gave some. If anyone else gives a
fraction of a damn, perhaps we'll get some additional info.
|
Out of curiosity, I googled:
http://hem.passagen.se/obrecht/backpages/chords/04_anotherside/i_dont_believe_you.htm
This track, by Bob Dylan in 1964 does seem to be using this particular
sense of "I don't believe you".
Here is an extract of some of the lyrics:
||||
If I didn't have to guess
I'd gladly confess
To anything I might've tried
If I was with her too long
Or have done something wrong
I wish she'd tell me what it is, I'll run and hide
Though the night ran swirling and whirling
I remember her whispering yet
But evidently she don't
evidently she won't
She just acts like we never have met.
||||
TOF |
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