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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: | The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
In my experience, the exasperated cry is "I don't [or "can't"] believe
*this*." Or possibly "I don't believe you're doing that." But not "I
don't believe you." In more than six decades of speaking English in
various parts of the US, I can't recall ever hearing "I don't believe
you" as an expression of exasperation with a person.
YMMV.
|
Children must be a lot more attentive in the US then.
TOF
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
[ ... ]
| Quote: | My advice was to the general, and not to the specific. What can be
said without offending between friends or people who regularly
converse with each other is quite different that what can be said
politely to the world at large.
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First time I've ever seen "from" misspelled "t-h-a-t." Nicely done,
Coop.
--
Bob Lieblich
Still a smartass |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
| Quote: | There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
|
In my experience, the exasperated cry is "I don't [or "can't"] believe
*this*." Or possibly "I don't believe you're doing that." But not "I
don't believe you." In more than six decades of speaking English in
various parts of the US, I can't recall ever hearing "I don't believe
you" as an expression of exasperation with a person.
YMMV.
--
Bob Lieblich
I can't believe I'm replying to this thread
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JF
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:28 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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In message <4366EA80.ECA17372@verizon.net>, Robert Lieblich
<robert.lieblich@verizon.net> writes
| Quote: | Anyway, invoking Bob Dylan to support an argument that something is a
standard locution is a bit like invoking Dylan Thomas -- they don't
use English the way us ordinary folk do.
|
"The sun declared war on the butter, and the butter ran." That was Dylan
writing about a picnic.
--
James Follett |
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:37 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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JF wrote:
| Quote: | In message <4366EA80.ECA17372@verizon.net>, Robert Lieblich
robert.lieblich@verizon.net> writes
Anyway, invoking Bob Dylan to support an argument that something is a
standard locution is a bit like invoking Dylan Thomas -- they don't
use English the way us ordinary folk do.
"The sun declared war on the butter, and the butter ran." That was Dylan
writing about a picnic.
|
Sounds like a picnic I remember from Warragamba Dam, c Christmas 1965,
except for the ants and the leaky Esky.
TOF |
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Don Aitken
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:42 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On 31 Oct 2005 18:40:51 -0800, "The Other Fran"
<fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
In my experience, the exasperated cry is "I don't [or "can't"] believe
*this*." Or possibly "I don't believe you're doing that." But not "I
don't believe you." In more than six decades of speaking English in
various parts of the US, I can't recall ever hearing "I don't believe
you" as an expression of exasperation with a person.
YMMV.
Children must be a lot more attentive in the US then.
No, Fran. The expression you describe as an exasperated cry ("I don't
believe you") is not so used in the US, at least if my experience is
any guide. That's what I said. As I also pointed out, we do have
expressions for such use; I gave some. If anyone else gives a
fraction of a damn, perhaps we'll get some additional info.
Out of curiosity, I googled:
http://hem.passagen.se/obrecht/backpages/chords/04_anotherside/i_dont_believe_you.htm
This track, by Bob Dylan in 1964 does seem to be using this particular
sense of "I don't believe you".
And, of course, Dylan's response to the famous 1966 Manchester heckler |
was "I don't believe you", which always struck me as an odd way to
respond to someone calling you "Judas". It makes a bit more sense if
used in the way you suggest.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" |
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:48 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Don Aitken wrote:
| Quote: | On 31 Oct 2005 18:40:51 -0800, "The Other Fran"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
In my experience, the exasperated cry is "I don't [or "can't"] believe
*this*." Or possibly "I don't believe you're doing that." But not "I
don't believe you." In more than six decades of speaking English in
various parts of the US, I can't recall ever hearing "I don't believe
you" as an expression of exasperation with a person.
YMMV.
Children must be a lot more attentive in the US then.
No, Fran. The expression you describe as an exasperated cry ("I don't
believe you") is not so used in the US, at least if my experience is
any guide. That's what I said. As I also pointed out, we do have
expressions for such use; I gave some. If anyone else gives a
fraction of a damn, perhaps we'll get some additional info.
Out of curiosity, I googled:
http://hem.passagen.se/obrecht/backpages/chords/04_anotherside/i_dont_believe_you.htm
This track, by Bob Dylan in 1964 does seem to be using this particular
sense of "I don't believe you".
And, of course, Dylan's response to the famous 1966 Manchester heckler
was "I don't believe you", which always struck me as an odd way to
respond to someone calling you "Judas". It makes a bit more sense if
used in the way you suggest.
|
Is the reason for the taunt known?
TOF |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:54 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On 31 Oct 2005 18:40:51 -0800, "The Other Fran"
<fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | This track, by Bob Dylan in 1964 does seem to be using this particular
sense of "I don't believe you".
Here is an extract of some of the lyrics:
||||
If I didn't have to guess
I'd gladly confess
To anything I might've tried
If I was with her too long
Or have done something wrong
I wish she'd tell me what it is, I'll run and hide
Though the night ran swirling and whirling
I remember her whispering yet
But evidently she don't
evidently she won't
She just acts like we never have met.
|
One of his best songs, in my view. I've always thought his "But
evidently she don't, evidently she won't" brilliant.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:54 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:12:04 -0500, Robert Lieblich
<robert.lieblich@verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
[ ... ]
My advice was to the general, and not to the specific. What can be
said without offending between friends or people who regularly
converse with each other is quite different that what can be said
politely to the world at large.
First time I've ever seen "from" misspelled "t-h-a-t." Nicely done,
Coop.
|
A misspelled "than", I'd say, in most varieties of AmE, TCE included,
"different from" being one Briticism, of a sort, Tony Cooper hasn't
adopted yet.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:54 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On 31 Oct 2005 20:54:00 -0800, "The Other Fran"
<fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Despite my remarks in the thread above, I believe Skitt has a point. I
could have used commas more judiciously and designed the paragraph so
as to separate direct claims from parenthetic remarks. So yes, the post
might have been better composed.
|
commas along with all forms of punctuation capital letters too are
window dressing
there is no need for them for the reader to understand what the writer
is expressing if you dont believe me take another gander at the last
18 pages of Joyces Ulysses
The above is not a good example of the style I'm referring to, but
Joyce and Faulkner could write that way to near perfection when they
wanted to. Commas, then, along with capital letters and an insistence
on correct spelling are for the weak-hearted, the unsure souls of this
world, and conventional Joes. The Great Men and Women of This World
have no need for commas and other types of punctuation, I'm sure
you'll agree.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:54 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On 1 Nov 2005 00:48:33 -0800, "The Other Fran" <fran_beta@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Don Aitken wrote:
On 31 Oct 2005 18:40:51 -0800, "The Other Fran"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
[ ... ]
There is also the exasperated cry:
"I don't believe you!" meaning something like "I think your behaviour
is outlandish and unacceptable".
In my experience, the exasperated cry is "I don't [or "can't"] believe
*this*." Or possibly "I don't believe you're doing that." But not "I
don't believe you." In more than six decades of speaking English in
various parts of the US, I can't recall ever hearing "I don't believe
you" as an expression of exasperation with a person.
YMMV.
Children must be a lot more attentive in the US then.
No, Fran. The expression you describe as an exasperated cry ("I don't
believe you") is not so used in the US, at least if my experience is
any guide. That's what I said. As I also pointed out, we do have
expressions for such use; I gave some. If anyone else gives a
fraction of a damn, perhaps we'll get some additional info.
Out of curiosity, I googled:
http://hem.passagen.se/obrecht/backpages/chords/04_anotherside/i_dont_believe_you.htm
This track, by Bob Dylan in 1964 does seem to be using this particular
sense of "I don't believe you".
And, of course, Dylan's response to the famous 1966 Manchester heckler
was "I don't believe you", which always struck me as an odd way to
respond to someone calling you "Judas". It makes a bit more sense if
used in the way you suggest.
Is the reason for the taunt known?
|
It may not have been the reason, but many people were perturbed when
he adopted a somewhat rock 'n roll style. He recovered his senses, of
course.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:54 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:09:36 -0500, Robert Lieblich
<robert.lieblich@verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Anyway, invoking Bob Dylan to support an argument that something is a
standard locution is a bit like invoking Dylan Thomas -- they don't
use English the way us ordinary folk do.
|
All the more reason to quote them and to try to emulate them.
| Quote: | But if it comforts you, Fran, feel free to clutch it to your bosom.
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Well, I clutched the song to mine years ago. So there.
--
Charles Riggs |
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Charles Riggs wrote:
| Quote: | On 31 Oct 2005 20:54:00 -0800, "The Other Fran"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
Despite my remarks in the thread above, I believe Skitt has a point. I
could have used commas more judiciously and designed the paragraph so
as to separate direct claims from parenthetic remarks. So yes, the post
might have been better composed.
commas along with all forms of punctuation capital letters too are
window dressing
|
Now that's a bold claim. I'm not ready for e e cummings yet.
| Quote: | there is no need for them for the reader to understand what the writer
is expressing if you dont believe me take another gander at the last
18 pages of Joyces Ulysses
|
I believe that book puts me to shame for long sentences. I'll have to
work harder to match Joyce.
| Quote: | The above is not a good example of the style I'm referring to, but
Joyce and Faulkner could write that way to near perfection when they
wanted to. Commas, then, along with capital letters and an insistence
on correct spelling are for the weak-hearted, the unsure souls of this
world, and conventional Joes. The Great Men and Women of This World
have no need for commas and other types of punctuation, I'm sure
you'll agree.
|
I'm not sure I do, but then, even if I did, it's not my claim that I
ought to be accepted as one of this world's great women. I'm going to
continue using the tools that others better equipped than I, may not
need.
Still, I thank you for allowing me to briefly rub shoulders with such
august people.
Fran |
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:17 pm
Post subject: Re: I don't believe you vs I don't trust you, help plz |
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Charles Riggs wrote:
| Quote: | On 31 Oct 2005 18:40:51 -0800, "The Other Fran"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
This track, by Bob Dylan in 1964 does seem to be using this particular
sense of "I don't believe you".
Here is an extract of some of the lyrics:
||||
If I didn't have to guess
I'd gladly confess
To anything I might've tried
If I was with her too long
Or have done something wrong
I wish she'd tell me what it is, I'll run and hide
Though the night ran swirling and whirling
I remember her whispering yet
But evidently she don't
evidently she won't
She just acts like we never have met.
One of his best songs, in my view. I've always thought his "But
evidently she don't, evidently she won't" brilliant.
--
Charles Riggs
|
I've always liked both the Dylans to whom Bob referred.
TOF |
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