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Message |
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:12 am
Post subject: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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I have recently been looking into bilingual education and understand
that full immersion has worked out in the past, but in some cases there
have been really effective bilingual programs where students have
excelled. Full immersion can really raise the expectation placed on
students' shoulders and drive them to learn the English language which
they so desperately need to succeed in the U.S. However, I also
understand that some bilingual education programs preserve the
students' culture, and native language, which can be very valuable to
the classroom, and for
the individuals future when working with people from other backgrounds.
How do you feel about following California's footsteps and outlawing
bilingual education across the U.S.?
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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<gameziii@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130710322.947292.180490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I have recently been looking into bilingual education and understand
that full immersion has worked out in the past, but in some cases there
. . .
How do you feel about following California's footsteps and outlawing
bilingual education across the U.S.?
|
Better repost telling us exactly what California has done
and proposes doing. (Canada has monolingual, bilingual,
polylingual and immersion schools. Most immersion programs
are practically monolingual. No Canadian law "outlaws bilingual
education" but some laws proscribe particular languages.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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Don Phillipson wrote:
| Quote: | gameziii@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have recently been looking into bilingual education and understand
that full immersion has worked out in the past, but in some cases
there . . .
How do you feel about following California's footsteps and outlawing
bilingual education across the U.S.?
Better repost telling us exactly what California has done
and proposes doing. (Canada has monolingual, bilingual,
polylingual and immersion schools. Most immersion programs
are practically monolingual. No Canadian law "outlaws bilingual
education" but some laws proscribe particular languages.)
|
Gosh, all I can say is that after arriving in the USA, I was not offered any
high school courses that were taught in Latvian. I turned out OK, though.
I don't think that others are much less capable.
--
Skitt (AUE's token Latvian)
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:29 am
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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On 30 Oct 2005 14:12:02 -0800, gameziii@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | I have recently been looking into bilingual education and understand
that full immersion has worked out in the past, but in some cases there
have been really effective bilingual programs where students have
excelled. Full immersion can really raise the expectation placed on
students' shoulders and drive them to learn the English language which
they so desperately need to succeed in the U.S. However, I also
understand that some bilingual education programs preserve the
students' culture, and native language, which can be very valuable to
the classroom, and for
the individuals future when working with people from other backgrounds.
How do you feel about following California's footsteps and outlawing
bilingual education across the U.S.?
|
There are arguments for and against bilingual education. The most
common argument for it is that non-native speakers fall behind because
they can't follow English-only classes. The most common argument
against it is that non-native speakers never will become proficient in
English if they are allowed to take classes in their own language.
Proponents of the "anti" position maintain that students who do not
become proficient in English are at a disadvantage when its time to
get a job.
Seldom voiced is the argument that many schools just don't have the
resources - human or financial - to provide bilingual education. We
have schools that don't have the resources to provide one set of
textbooks and schools without other vital resources. There is also
the argument that we are not adequately educating children as it is,
and just applying current teaching methods in other languages doesn't
improve anything.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:35 am
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:OPmdnakZ94MgzfjeRVn-jw@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Gosh, all I can say is that after arriving in the USA, I was not offered
any
high school courses that were taught in Latvian. I turned out OK, though.
I don't think that others are much less capable.
|
The first time I voted in Toronto (about 1965) it was
at a small primary school on the block where I lived,
and I was charmed to discover it was bilingual
(English and Chinese.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:29:39 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On 30 Oct 2005 14:12:02 -0800, gameziii@hotmail.com wrote:
I have recently been looking into bilingual education and understand
that full immersion has worked out in the past, but in some cases there
have been really effective bilingual programs where students have
excelled. Full immersion can really raise the expectation placed on
students' shoulders and drive them to learn the English language which
they so desperately need to succeed in the U.S. However, I also
understand that some bilingual education programs preserve the
students' culture, and native language, which can be very valuable to
the classroom, and for
the individuals future when working with people from other backgrounds.
How do you feel about following California's footsteps and outlawing
bilingual education across the U.S.?
There are arguments for and against bilingual education. The most
common argument for it is that non-native speakers fall behind because
they can't follow English-only classes. The most common argument
against it is that non-native speakers never will become proficient in
English if they are allowed to take classes in their own language.
Proponents of the "anti" position maintain that students who do not
become proficient in English are at a disadvantage when its time to
get a job.
Seldom voiced is the argument that many schools just don't have the
resources - human or financial - to provide bilingual education. We
have schools that don't have the resources to provide one set of
textbooks and schools without other vital resources. There is also
the argument that we are not adequately educating children as it is,
and just applying current teaching methods in other languages doesn't
improve anything.
|
You've summed up the arguments for and against quite nicely, Coop. My
question is just how long does it take for a youngster to become
proficient enough in a new language to be able to benefit from
instruction in that language?
My grandmother on the bad side, a Norwegian speaker, came to the US
when she was 14. She was determined to not speak a word of Norwegian
after arriving. I suspect many immigrants to America feel much the
same way. If you're going to adopt America as your home, you must
learn English as quickly as possible to benefit from the American way
of life.
So how long does it take to reach reasonable proficiency, when young?
Six months on the outside is my guess from what I remember of my
experience as a kid learning minimal German when living there. And I
wasn't half as motivated, living on a US Army base, as a newcomer to
America would be.
--
Charles Riggs |
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JF
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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X-No-Archive: yes
In message <o4gbm1dub2sisgma6eojmgg8hm9n79hdh8@4ax.com>, Charles Riggs
<chriggs@?.net.invalid> writes
| Quote: | My grandmother on the bad side, a Norwegian speaker, came to the US
when she was 14. She was determined to not speak a word of Norwegian
after arriving. I suspect many immigrants to America feel much the
same way. If you're going to adopt America as your home, you must
learn English as quickly as possible to benefit from the American way
of life.
|
America was lucky. During the great waves of immigration to America,
particularly in the 19th Century when the Irish rather foolishly ran out
of potatoes, many of the immigrants wanted to be American. Their
religious customs would be confined to family life, but outside they
wanted to be street Americans. They wanted to fit in. Even folks not in
America want to be mistaken for Americans. In Arab countries I've seen
plenty of kids dressed-up in the American national costume of jeans,
T-shirts, trainers and baseball caps.
Today few of the wog chappies swarming into England by hanging to the
underside of cross-marche trains, packing themselves into fruit trucks,
or swimming ashore disguised as oil slicks, want to be English. They
hate the English and everything even remotely English with a burning
passion. They wander around the streets in unenglish gear such as
nightshirts, sporting huge black beards (and so do the blokes), Al Quran
in one hand and a bomb-making manual in the other, and open shops
emblazoned with signs in their own heathen language. They're so
determined not learn a word of English that local authorities have to
print forms for welfare pay-outs and vote registration in their own
language. The BBC have even started up radio channels for them playing
the quite horrible, clanging Bombay top ten.
I suppose the attitude of local authorities and the BBC is that they
don't want immigrants getting their swarthy hands on English culture. If
so, it's a pity because England is becoming a moiety with each side
alienated from the other.
Still, it's not all doom and gloom. The exception are the Chinese. I
spent a few days in hospital recently. The cleaners were mostly Paki
woman. Try to chat them up or converse with them and they'd stare right
through you. Corner one alone and give it a bit of old-fashioned,
good-natured English banter and it would get very agitated. I hate to
say this but they were miserable cows who never cracked a smile. By
contrast a couple of Chinese nurses were a delight. Vivacious, smiling,
mischievous, flirtatious and helpful, never missed a trick and capable
of giving as good as they got. Bright as Grenadiers' buttons.
(NB: In Spain I recently refused to sign a petition by ex-pat Brits
asking the town hall to dish out property forms in English. Stuff and
nonsense was my argument. It's their country; their lingo, which isn't
too hard to learn because they stick an 'o' on the end of everything).
--
James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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JF <jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk> spake thusly:
| Quote: | (NB: In Spain I recently refused to sign a petition by ex-pat Brits
asking the town hall to dish out property forms in English. Stuff and
nonsense was my argument. It's their country; their lingo, which isn't
too hard to learn because they stick an 'o' on the end of everything).
|
I'm working in Spain from time to time at the moment. I have little
Spanish, but I can read it fairly easily because, as I explained to
my colleagues there, it's mostly French with "o" stuck on the ends of
the words.
"Aha!", they replied, "we say that French is just Spanish with the
ends of the words missing."
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:12:33 +0000, JF <jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk>
wrought:
| Quote: | (NB: In Spain I recently refused to sign a petition by ex-pat Brits
asking the town hall to dish out property forms in English. Stuff and
nonsense was my argument. It's their country; their lingo, which isn't
too hard to learn because they stick an 'o' on the end of everything).
|
However, in many erstwhile-bijou-but-now-about-as-sexy-as-
Morecambe-on-a-wet-Thursday-in-February locations on the Costa
Del-Boy, it's those ex-pats' taxes what keeps the streets clean, so if
the local *políticos* -- hey, you're right; it really works! -- are
*típico*, they'll give in to such *patético* demands to stay in power.
--
Ross Howard |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:41:56 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com>
wrought:
| Quote: | JF <jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk> spake thusly:
(NB: In Spain I recently refused to sign a petition by ex-pat Brits
asking the town hall to dish out property forms in English. Stuff and
nonsense was my argument. It's their country; their lingo, which isn't
too hard to learn because they stick an 'o' on the end of everything).
I'm working in Spain from time to time at the moment. I have little
Spanish, but I can read it fairly easily because, as I explained to
my colleagues there, it's mostly French with "o" stuck on the ends of
the words.
"Aha!", they replied, "we say that French is just Spanish with the
ends of the words missing."
|
And Catalan is even better -- it's just French spelt wrong.
--
Ross Howard |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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| Quote: | In message <o4gbm1dub2sisgma6eojmgg8hm9n79hdh8@4ax.com>, Charles Riggs
chriggs@?.net.invalid> writes
My grandmother on the bad side, a Norwegian speaker, came to the US
when she was 14. She was determined to not speak a word of Norwegian
after arriving. I suspect many immigrants to America feel much the
same way. If you're going to adopt America as your home, you must
learn English as quickly as possible to benefit from the American way
of life.
|
Canadian data suggests consistent patterns of difference
between national groups of immigrants. For example, in
the third generation (grandchildren of migrants), many more
Chinese families stilll speak Chinese than Japanese still
speak Japanese, Ukrainians and Poles organize (in churches
and social clubs) to maintain their languages in Canada while
Dutch families seldom bother, etc.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:50 am
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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<gameziii@hotmail.com> wrote:
How long is a Californian footstep?
Jan |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:20 am
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
| Quote: | On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:41:56 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com
wrought:
JF <jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk> spake thusly:
(NB: In Spain I recently refused to sign a petition by ex-pat Brits
asking the town hall to dish out property forms in English. Stuff and
nonsense was my argument. It's their country; their lingo, which isn't
too hard to learn because they stick an 'o' on the end of everything).
I'm working in Spain from time to time at the moment. I have little
Spanish, but I can read it fairly easily because, as I explained to
my colleagues there, it's mostly French with "o" stuck on the ends of
the words.
"Aha!", they replied, "we say that French is just Spanish with the
ends of the words missing."
And Catalan is even better -- it's just French spelt wrong.
|
I've always reckoned that Catalan is French infected with a bit of
left-over Latin.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:09 am
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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Charles Riggs wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:29:39 GMT, Tony Cooper
tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
On 30 Oct 2005 14:12:02 -0800, gameziii@hotmail.com wrote:
I have recently been looking into bilingual education and understand
that full immersion has worked out in the past, but in some cases there
have been really effective bilingual programs where students have
excelled. Full immersion can really raise the expectation placed on
students' shoulders and drive them to learn the English language which
they so desperately need to succeed in the U.S. However, I also
understand that some bilingual education programs preserve the
students' culture, and native language, which can be very valuable to
the classroom, and for
the individuals future when working with people from other backgrounds.
How do you feel about following California's footsteps and outlawing
bilingual education across the U.S.?
There are arguments for and against bilingual education. The most
common argument for it is that non-native speakers fall behind because
they can't follow English-only classes. The most common argument
against it is that non-native speakers never will become proficient in
English if they are allowed to take classes in their own language.
Proponents of the "anti" position maintain that students who do not
become proficient in English are at a disadvantage when its time to
get a job.
Seldom voiced is the argument that many schools just don't have the
resources - human or financial - to provide bilingual education. We
have schools that don't have the resources to provide one set of
textbooks and schools without other vital resources.
|
This leads to the argument that we need to support schools better.
| Quote: | There is also
the argument that we are not adequately educating children as it is,
and just applying current teaching methods in other languages doesn't
improve anything.
You've summed up the arguments for and against quite nicely, Coop. My
question is just how long does it take for a youngster to become
proficient enough in a new language to be able to benefit from
instruction in that language?
My grandmother on the bad side, a Norwegian speaker, came to the US
when she was 14. She was determined to not speak a word of Norwegian
after arriving. I suspect many immigrants to America feel much the
same way.
|
Not a large number of Mexican immigrants, some of whom I know.
| Quote: | If you're going to adopt America as your home, you must
learn English as quickly as possible to benefit from the American way
of life.
|
You can benefit quite well without speaking any English, as I've
observed. Maybe you meant "to benefit maximally"?
| Quote: | So how long does it take to reach reasonable proficiency, when young?
Six months on the outside is my guess from what I remember of my
experience as a kid learning minimal German when living there. And I
wasn't half as motivated, living on a US Army base, as a newcomer to
America would be.
|
I once went to a workshop by Lillian Roybal Rose (a daughter of Edward
Roybal, the Congressman who wrote the first law to support bilingual
education--who died last week). She said it takes about three years on
average to reach the proficiency needed to keep up in a classroom.
She's definitely on the pro-bilingual-education side, and the other
side undoubtedly has shorter estimates. Of course, the average would
be shorter for six-year-olds than for sixteen-year-olds.
Not everybody has Skitt's language abilities.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: Following California's Footsteps in Bilingual Education |
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On 31 Oct 2005 14:09:28 -0800, "jerry_friedman@yahoo.com"
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I once went to a workshop by Lillian Roybal Rose (a daughter of Edward
Roybal, the Congressman who wrote the first law to support bilingual
education--who died last week). She said it takes about three years on
average to reach the proficiency needed to keep up in a classroom.
She's definitely on the pro-bilingual-education side, and the other
side undoubtedly has shorter estimates. Of course, the average would
be shorter for six-year-olds than for sixteen-year-olds.
Not everybody has Skitt's language abilities.
|
Skitt may have language abilities, but I don't think that lack of
language abilities is the reason - or even a major part of the reason
- that immigrants in this area don't learn English. The immigrant
here in Orlando from Puerto Rico, Cuba, Haiti, Viet Nam, Cambodia,
etc. can move into a neighborhood where his or her native language is
the language of the general population. He or she can shop, work, and
do just about anything without having any English skills.
School may be the only part of the day that an immigrant child is in a
situation where English *might* be needed.
Skitt may spoken Latvian at home, but once out of his house, I suspect
it was communicate in English or don't communicate at all. That tends
to sharpen up the language abilities.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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