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CL
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:33 pm
Post subject: Clause rank or phrase rank |
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Hi,
I am a retiree trying to learn English by myself for one year. I am a French
native speaker.
What the word "rank" means in the following excerpt of " Grammar : Words and
Their Arrangement" (http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/grammar/) :
" Words and phrases are the constituents of the clause rank.... Consider the
following example, in which we can see that a single clause is composed of
smaller units of the phrase rank. "
--
Best regards
ARTTLE : A Retiree Trying To Learn English
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Clause rank or phrase rank |
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CL <CL@Nullepart.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | I am a retiree trying to learn English by myself for one year. I am a French
native speaker.
What the word "rank" means in the following excerpt of " Grammar : Words and
Their Arrangement" (http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/grammar/) :
" Words and phrases are the constituents of the clause rank.... Consider the
following example, in which we can see that a single clause is composed of
smaller units of the phrase rank. "
--
Best regards
ARTTLE : A Retiree Trying To Learn English
|
Doesn't "rank" translate as "rang" in French? It's not a normal word to
reach for -- I think the writer was desperate. He meant, there is this
group of things called "clauses," and there is a group of things called
"phrases," and "clauses" have a higher "rank" than "phrases" -- "a
single clause is composed of smaller units" (phrases).
This looks like an awful start, I'm afraid. If this book doesn't get
much better real fast, I suggest you find some other book for your
year's study... I've just looked at a few pages. This is aimed at native
speakers who want to study the technical aspects of grammar, not at
foreign speakers who want to improve their English. I mean, just look
at:
Furthermore, we also know that each phrase can be
subcategorized into its constituent parts.
If you're OK with this, go right ahead. But I suspect it's not what
you're looking for.
--
Best wishes -- Donna Richoux |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:53 am
Post subject: Re: Clause rank or phrase rank |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: |
CL <CL@Nullepart.invalid> wrote:
I am a retiree trying to learn English by myself for one year. I am a French
native speaker.
What the word "rank" means in the following excerpt of " Grammar : Words and
Their Arrangement" (http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/grammar/) :
" Words and phrases are the constituents of the clause rank.... Consider the
following example, in which we can see that a single clause is composed of
smaller units of the phrase rank. "
--
Best regards
ARTTLE : A Retiree Trying To Learn English
Doesn't "rank" translate as "rang" in French? It's not a normal word to
reach for -- I think the writer was desperate.
I think the writer is a linguist. I guess both could be true, especially |
when looking for a date for Saturday night.
| Quote: | He meant, there is this
group of things called "clauses," and there is a group of things called
"phrases," and "clauses" have a higher "rank" than "phrases" -- "a
single clause is composed of smaller units" (phrases).
So once we understand what is meant by "rank", not really that much |
actually, the scales fall from our eyes.
| Quote: | This looks like an awful start, I'm afraid. If this book doesn't get
much better real fast, I suggest you find some other book for your
year's study... I've just looked at a few pages. This is aimed at native
speakers who want to study the technical aspects of grammar, not at
foreign speakers who want to improve their English. I mean, just look
at:
Furthermore, we also know that each phrase can be
subcategorized into its constituent parts.
That's pretty clear if perhaps overly wordy for its real content. At |
least the book seems to be consistent.
| Quote: | If you're OK with this, go right ahead. But I suspect it's not what
you're looking for.
I've wondered for a while whether or not it would help to learn a |
language by analysing complex sentences translated from English into
that language as literally as possible while remaining correct in the
target language. I think that might expose the differences rapidly and
succinctly.
--
Had Tolstoy confined himself to war or peace, he could have been
finished in seven hundred and fifty pages.
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Chris Waigl
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:20 am
Post subject: Re: Clause rank or phrase rank |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:33:00 +0100, CL wrote:
| Quote: | I am a retiree trying to learn English by myself for one year. I am a
French native speaker.
What the word "rank" means in the following excerpt of " Grammar : Words
and Their Arrangement" (http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/grammar/) :
" Words and phrases are the constituents of the clause rank.... Consider
the following example, in which we can see that a single clause is
composed of smaller units of the phrase rank. "
|
Ouch, this is unnecessarily technical for a grammar textbook.
You'd call it "niveau" in French: the writer is talking about the
difference between phrases (and words) on the one hands and clauses on the
other. Clauses contain phrases. Simple sentences may consist of a single
clause, but usually have several phrases (a noun phrase and a verb phrase
for example).
Careful, there's a false friend lurking here, i.e. the English terms are
misleading for a French speaker. English: "clause" - French: "phrase";
example: "relative clause" - "phrase relative". English "phrase" - French
"syntagme" or "groupe"; example: "noun phrase" - "syntagme nominal".
(There's another such difficulty you may stumble upon when you come to
adjectives. English: "attributive" - French: "épithète"; example: "a
green car"; English: "predicative" - French: "attributif"; example: "The
car is green.")
Chris Waigl
--
blog: http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
eggcorns: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/ |
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ARTTLE
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: Clause rank or phrase rank |
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Great thanks to Donna, Bill and Chris.
I didn't understand that clauses and phrases were hierarchically organized.
It's perfectly clear now.
Chris Waigl wrote:
| Quote: | Careful, there's a false friend lurking here, i.e. the English terms
are misleading for a French speaker. English: "clause" - French:
"phrase"; example: "relative clause" - "phrase relative". English
"phrase" - French "syntagme" or "groupe"; example: "noun phrase" -
"syntagme nominal".
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I think that "sentence" = "phrase" (beginning with a capital letter and
ending with a period) and "clause" = "proposition". But perhaps am I wrong?
--
--
Best regards
ARTTLE : A Retiree Trying To Learn English |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Clause rank or phrase rank |
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ARTTLE wrote:
| Quote: |
Great thanks to Donna, Bill and Chris.
I didn't understand that clauses and phrases were hierarchically organized.
It's perfectly clear now.
Since the terms appearing superficially to be purely cognate are used |
differently in English and French, it might make sense to make a chart
to make sure you don't get confused or just misremember. If you are
trying to learn more about a language, I think you should try to distil
its essence without all the linguist fluff. One thing to write down
early would be canonical word order. For example, is it a time, manner,
place language or a place, manner, time language or something else? Part
of the problem with finding a book in English about English grammar is
that it naturally assumes English is your first language, and naturally
assumes you are into all the fluff. OTOH, if you find a book in English
about French grammar, it is likely to more clearly state what you need,
useful rules. I would seek something like a lay grammar, something below
the linguist-only material and well above the learn languages by
learning phrases for asking how to the toilet stuff.
--
Had Tolstoy confined himself to war or peace, he could have been
finished in seven hundred and fifty pages. |
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Chris Waigl
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Clause rank or phrase rank |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 06:55:36 +0100, ARTTLE wrote:
| Quote: | I think that "sentence" = "phrase" (beginning with a capital letter and
ending with a period) and "clause" = "proposition". But perhaps am I wrong?
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You are right, but it depends on the degree of formality. You do here
"phrase relative" or "phrase subordonnée" where "proposition" would be
the expected technical term.
Chris Waigl
--
blog: http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
eggcorns: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/
personal blog : just ask for the URL |
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ARTTLE
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: Clause rank or phrase rank |
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Thanks for your advices.
| Quote: | .... One thing to write down early would be canonical word order.
...
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It was precisely what I was searching : the word order in the sentence.
I have several French books on English grammar and the English book "English
Grammar In Use". During last year, I have studied "noun phrases", "verbal
phrase", and so on. I haven't remembered all the rules, far from it! I'm now
facing with the following question : how can I use those phrases in order to
build a clause or a sentence?
I liked very much the various diagrams about phrases or sentences in "Words
and Their Arrangement".
--
Best regards
ARTTLE : A Retiree Trying To Learn English |
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