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lee walters
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:35 pm
Post subject: rhetorical question mark |
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Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark? I've read about a rhetorical question mark once
existing...a kind of backward question mark, but believe it's been lost
throughout the years. Shame.
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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lee walters wrote:
| Quote: | Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark? I've read about a rhetorical question mark once
existing...a kind of backward question mark, but believe it's been lost
throughout the years. Shame.
|
There's no consensus about this. I say the issue is one of syntax and
intonation: a rhetorical question is syntactically a question, and
most such questions are spoken with the rising intonation of a
question. So I say put a question mark at the end. Others make the
point that a rhetorical question is not semantically a question -- no
answer is sought or expected -- so no question mark is needed. I find
this unpersuasive.
If all else fails, consider that it's a lot easier to explain why you
did put a question mark at the end of a question than why you didn't.
--
Bob Lieblich
What did you expect? |
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Murray Arnow
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:11 pm
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: | lee walters wrote:
Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark? I've read about a rhetorical question mark once
existing...a kind of backward question mark, but believe it's been lost
throughout the years. Shame.
There's no consensus about this. I say the issue is one of syntax and
intonation: a rhetorical question is syntactically a question, and
most such questions are spoken with the rising intonation of a
question. So I say put a question mark at the end. Others make the
point that a rhetorical question is not semantically a question -- no
answer is sought or expected -- so no question mark is needed. I find
this unpersuasive.
If all else fails, consider that it's a lot easier to explain why you
did put a question mark at the end of a question than why you didn't.
|
I found this interesting tidbit at
http://tinyurl.com/c9khn
http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.
jspa?threadID=600003908&messageID=600079400
To quote:
<begin>
Well, I would think that in the Queen's English during Shakespeare's time a
specific rhetorical question mark existed. When this died away in the
seventeenth century it was tentatively replaced with the standard question
mark of today which captured the grammar but not the meaning of a rhetorical
question. Consequently, the placing of a standard question mark after a
rhetorical question has always been debated in the Queen's English.
If one defines a question as something designed to solicit information, then a
standard question mark is inappropriate after a rhetorical question. It is for
this reason that many if not most editors have replaced it with an exclamation
mark. Depending on the context and meaning they wish to convey, they also opt
for a period. As both a question mark and an exclamation mark were unsuitable
above, I settled on a period.
<end>
The part about editors using an exclamation mark to end a rhetorical question
seems to have been overlooked here in the recycling of this question. Did I
miss this in the many unread posts I ignore?
--
Why is it I read only talking books?!.
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:02 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: |
lee walters wrote:
Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark? I've read about a rhetorical question mark once
existing...a kind of backward question mark, but believe it's been lost
throughout the years. Shame.
There's no consensus about this. I say the issue is one of syntax and
intonation: a rhetorical question is syntactically a question, and
most such questions are spoken with the rising intonation of a
question. So I say put a question mark at the end. Others make the
point that a rhetorical question is not semantically a question -- no
answer is sought or expected -- so no question mark is needed. I find
this unpersuasive.
What do you do when you have questions that have a clause at the end |
which are not really the question? I suppose you might say, "Rewrite
them and stop doing that."
| Quote: | If all else fails, consider that it's a lot easier to explain why you
did put a question mark at the end of a question than why you didn't.
But leaving it off might be a way of telling the reader that you aren't |
really asking them a question intended for them to actually answer.
--
Had Tolstoy confined himself to war or peace, he could have been
finished in seven hundred and fifty pages. |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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Bill Bonde wrote:
| Quote: |
Robert Lieblich wrote:
lee walters wrote:
Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark? I've read about a rhetorical question mark once
existing...a kind of backward question mark, but believe it's been lost
throughout the years. Shame.
There's no consensus about this. I say the issue is one of syntax and
intonation: a rhetorical question is syntactically a question, and
most such questions are spoken with the rising intonation of a
question. So I say put a question mark at the end. Others make the
point that a rhetorical question is not semantically a question -- no
answer is sought or expected -- so no question mark is needed. I find
this unpersuasive.
What do you do when you have questions that have a clause at the end
which are not really the question? I suppose you might say, "Rewrite
them and stop doing that."
If all else fails, consider that it's a lot easier to explain why you
did put a question mark at the end of a question than why you didn't.
But leaving it off might be a way of telling the reader that you aren't
really asking them a question intended for them to actually answer.
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If you're not a good enough writer to make clear whether a question is
or is not rhetorical, punctuation won't save you.
--
Bob Lieblich
Who likes to think he is |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:32 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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On 30 Oct 2005 13:35:46 GMT, lee walters
<pepplewickTAKEAWAY@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark?
|
A question mark. Always.
--
Charles Riggs |
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PR
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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"Robert Lieblich" wrote in message:
| Quote: | lee walters wrote:
Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark? I've read about a rhetorical question mark once
existing...a kind of backward question mark, but believe it's been lost
throughout the years. Shame.
There's no consensus about this. I say the issue is one of syntax and
intonation: a rhetorical question is syntactically a question, and
most such questions are spoken with the rising intonation of a
question. So I say put a question mark at the end. Others make the
point that a rhetorical question is not semantically a question -- no
answer is sought or expected -- so no question mark is needed. I find
this unpersuasive.
If all else fails, consider that it's a lot easier to explain why you
did put a question mark at the end of a question than why you didn't.
|
I like ending all questions, rhetorical or not, with question marks.
Whenever I see them ended with periods, I feel that they are not only
awkward but incorrect. Plus, I see many non-rhetorical questions ended with
periods, simply based on how they are intoned; i.e. "You were in there the
whole time, weren't you."
Maybe we should start using diacritics to indicate voice inflection.
"Yóu wère in there the whole tîme, wérèn't yòu?"
"You were ín thère the whole tîme, wérén't yóu?" |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: |
Bill Bonde wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
lee walters wrote:
Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark? I've read about a rhetorical question mark once
existing...a kind of backward question mark, but believe it's been lost
throughout the years. Shame.
There's no consensus about this. I say the issue is one of syntax and
intonation: a rhetorical question is syntactically a question, and
most such questions are spoken with the rising intonation of a
question. So I say put a question mark at the end. Others make the
point that a rhetorical question is not semantically a question -- no
answer is sought or expected -- so no question mark is needed. I find
this unpersuasive.
What do you do when you have questions that have a clause at the end
which are not really the question? I suppose you might say, "Rewrite
them and stop doing that."
If all else fails, consider that it's a lot easier to explain why you
did put a question mark at the end of a question than why you didn't.
But leaving it off might be a way of telling the reader that you aren't
really asking them a question intended for them to actually answer.
If you're not a good enough writer to make clear whether a question is
or is not rhetorical, punctuation won't save you.
So if you aren't a good enough writer to make yourself clear without |
punctuation punctuation won't save you.
--
Had Tolstoy confined himself to war or peace, he could have been
finished in seven hundred and fifty pages. |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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PR wrote:
| Quote: |
"Robert Lieblich" wrote in message:
lee walters wrote:
Should a rhetorical question end with a full stop (a period) or a
question mark? I've read about a rhetorical question mark once
existing...a kind of backward question mark, but believe it's been lost
throughout the years. Shame.
There's no consensus about this. I say the issue is one of syntax and
intonation: a rhetorical question is syntactically a question, and
most such questions are spoken with the rising intonation of a
question. So I say put a question mark at the end. Others make the
point that a rhetorical question is not semantically a question -- no
answer is sought or expected -- so no question mark is needed. I find
this unpersuasive.
If all else fails, consider that it's a lot easier to explain why you
did put a question mark at the end of a question than why you didn't.
I like ending all questions, rhetorical or not, with question marks.
Whenever I see them ended with periods, I feel that they are not only
awkward but incorrect. Plus, I see many non-rhetorical questions ended with
periods, simply based on how they are intoned; i.e. "You were in there the
whole time, weren't you."
"What about questions like this, occurring not all that uncommonly." |
"What about questions like this, occurring not all that uncommonly?"
Doesn't the question word tell you it's a question and where the
question is in the sentence above, or even in this one?
| Quote: | Maybe we should start using diacritics to indicate voice inflection.
"Yóu wère in there the whole tîme, wérèn't yòu?"
"You were ín thère the whole tîme, wérén't yóu?"
Maybe we could also sound like the Vietnamese. |
--
Had Tolstoy confined himself to war or peace, he could have been
finished in seven hundred and fifty pages. |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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"Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation')" wrote:
| Quote: |
Robert Lieblich wrote:
Bill Bonde wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
[ ... ]
If you're not a good enough writer to make clear whether a question is
or is not rhetorical, punctuation won't save you.
So if you aren't a good enough writer to make yourself clear without
punctuation punctuation won't save you.
I meant what I said and I said what I meant. Had I intended a general
rule, I'd have offered one.
Other than by answering your own question, how do you, as a good writer,
make it clear that the question is "rhetorical"? I suspect that
prepending a "this is a rhetorical question" to your question isn't
considered good writing.
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Do you really think I want to waste any more time on this?
Were you able to figure out that the preceding question was
rhetorical, whereas this one is not?
There are all sorts of ways of making the author's intention clear.
They apply to all sorts of text, questions included, and are not
limited to punctuation. Many of these ways are called "rhetorical
devices." (I don't think that encountering that term in a discussion
of "rhetorical questions" is a coincidence.) AUE brims over with
competent writers who use these devices to clarify their intent. They
don't always succeed, but their batting average is quite high.
Punctuation has its own function. The function, specifically, of a
question mark is to indicate that the sentence preceding it is
*syntactically* a question, without regard to whether the question is
rhetorical or not. It is the text of the question, and the context in
which it appears, that determines whether it is rhetorical or not.
This brings us back around to my original statement: "If you're not a
good enough writer to make clear whether a question is or is not
rhetorical, punctuation won't save you."
Do you really dispute this or are you just baiting me?
--
Bob Lieblich
And is that last question rhetorical or not? |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: |
Bill Bonde wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
[ ... ]
If you're not a good enough writer to make clear whether a question is
or is not rhetorical, punctuation won't save you.
So if you aren't a good enough writer to make yourself clear without
punctuation punctuation won't save you.
I meant what I said and I said what I meant. Had I intended a general
rule, I'd have offered one.
Other than by answering your own question, how do you, as a good writer, |
make it clear that the question is "rhetorical"? I suspect that
prepending a "this is a rhetorical question" to your question isn't
considered good writing.
--
Had Tolstoy confined himself to war or peace, he could have been
finished in seven hundred and fifty pages.
--
In a day and age when some people would think nothing of throwing stones
at Rosa Parks, she dared to rock the bus. Bully for her! |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:07 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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Bill Bonde wrote:
| Quote: |
Robert Lieblich wrote:
|
[ ... ]
| Quote: | If you're not a good enough writer to make clear whether a question is
or is not rhetorical, punctuation won't save you.
So if you aren't a good enough writer to make yourself clear without
punctuation punctuation won't save you.
|
I meant what I said and I said what I meant. Had I intended a general
rule, I'd have offered one.
--
Bob Lieblich
Or an admiral rule |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:54 pm
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:11:24 -0500, Robert Lieblich
<robert.lieblich@verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | This brings us back around to my original statement: "If you're not a
good enough writer to make clear whether a question is or is not
rhetorical, punctuation won't save you."
|
You appear to be arguing for and against this question mark at the
same time. Which side are you on [boy, which side are you on?], as a
unionist might ask?
--
Charles Riggs |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:16 am
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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Charles Riggs wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:11:24 -0500, Robert Lieblich
robert.lieblich@verizon.net> wrote:
This brings us back around to my original statement: "If you're not a
good enough writer to make clear whether a question is or is not
rhetorical, punctuation won't save you."
You appear to be arguing for and against this question mark at the
same time. Which side are you on [boy, which side are you on?], as a
unionist might ask?
|
Pay attention, Charles. I've repeatedly said that In my view the
question mark is syntactical and is used to indicate that what
precedes it is a question in form, whether rhetorical or not. To
indicate that a question is rhetorical, you don't omit the question
mark and assume that punctuation will do the trick. You leave the
question mark in place, as it should be, and you rely on the words you
use -- the writing -- to convey that the question is rhetorical. If
the words don't do the trick, punctuation won't save you. It'll just
confuse the reader.
Them's my views and I'm stickin' to 'em.
--
Bob Lieblich
Why do I have to keep repeating this? |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: rhetorical question mark |
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On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:16:20 -0500, Robert Lieblich
<robert.lieblich@verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Charles Riggs wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:11:24 -0500, Robert Lieblich
robert.lieblich@verizon.net> wrote:
This brings us back around to my original statement: "If you're not a
good enough writer to make clear whether a question is or is not
rhetorical, punctuation won't save you."
You appear to be arguing for and against this question mark at the
same time. Which side are you on [boy, which side are you on?], as a
unionist might ask?
Pay attention, Charles.
|
I believe I have been.
| Quote: | I've repeatedly said that In my view the
question mark is syntactical and is used to indicate that what
precedes it is a question in form, whether rhetorical or not.
|
Big fan of yours that I am, I hate to have to say that the meaning of
that sentence is anything but clear. What does "the question mark is
syntactical" supposed to mean? Syntax, as I understand it, involves
words, not punctuation.
| Quote: | To
indicate that a question is rhetorical, you don't omit the question
mark and assume that punctuation will do the trick.
|
This sentence also leaves me cold. What punctuation if the question
mark is omitted?
| Quote: | You leave the
question mark in place, as it should be, and you rely on the words you
use -- the writing -- to convey that the question is rhetorical.
|
OK. That's your view and mine, clearly and succinctly put. The rest,
IMHO, added confusion factors.
| Quote: | If
the words don't do the trick, punctuation won't save you. It'll just
confuse the reader.
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Uh...
| Quote: | Them's my views and I'm stickin' to 'em.
Bob Lieblich
Why do I have to keep repeating this?
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Sometimes we have to keep redoing something until we get it right: one
reason for the lengthiness of some of our threads.
--
Charles Riggs |
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