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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:01 pm
Post subject: "It's a different world now" |
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Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, Australia
is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of frivolous
legal principles like habeus corpus and the right to avoid punishment
without trial. A system of laws involving preventive detention for up
to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home detention with ankle
bracelets and restrictions on communication with others is in the
process of development as I write in order, it is argued, to deal with
the threat of "terror".
Often when these matters are discussed, one hears the phrase "it's a
different world now" or something equivalent. The thrust seems to be
that the changed circumstances from other condition of world affairs is
what mandates the apparently outlandish restrictions being mooted.
This, it seems to me, is a rather impressive claim, if it's true, and
yet I'm yet to hear anyone say precisely what they mean by this, apart
from the vague wave of the hand in the direction of suicide bombers and
the internet. How precisely, is the world different these days?
TOF
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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On 30 Oct 2005 01:01:52 -0700, "The Other Fran" <fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, Australia
is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of frivolous
legal principles like habeus corpus and the right to avoid punishment
without trial. A system of laws involving preventive detention for up
to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home detention with ankle
bracelets and restrictions on communication with others is in the
process of development as I write in order, it is argued, to deal with
the threat of "terror".
Often when these matters are discussed, one hears the phrase "it's a
different world now" or something equivalent. The thrust seems to be
that the changed circumstances from other condition of world affairs is
what mandates the apparently outlandish restrictions being mooted.
This, it seems to me, is a rather impressive claim, if it's true, and
yet I'm yet to hear anyone say precisely what they mean by this, apart
from the vague wave of the hand in the direction of suicide bombers and
the internet. How precisely, is the world different these days?
|
1) It is no longer safe to assume that someone walking along by themselves,
shouting at the top of their voices, is suffering from Tourette's.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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On 30 Oct 2005 01:01:52 -0700, "The Other Fran"
<fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, Australia
is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of frivolous
legal principles like habeus corpus and the right to avoid punishment
without trial. A system of laws involving preventive detention for up
to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home detention with ankle
bracelets and restrictions on communication with others is in the
process of development as I write in order, it is argued, to deal with
the threat of "terror".
|
I was distressed about this and said so some weeks ago. I got a big
ho-hum from Brits John Dean and crew. The parliament, I notice, is
less unconcerned.
--
Charles Riggs
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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:47 pm
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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The Other Fran wrote:
| Quote: | legal principles like habeus corpus
|
ObArjay: Oy! |
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Rick Wotnaz
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:30 pm
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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"The Other Fran" <fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1130659312.654695.41630@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
| Quote: | Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine,
Australia is moving to clamp down on the profligate application
of frivolous legal principles like habeus corpus and the right
to avoid punishment without trial. A system of laws involving
preventive detention for up to two weeks, along with "control
orders" (home detention with ankle bracelets and restrictions on
communication with others is in the process of development as I
write in order, it is argued, to deal with the threat of
"terror".
Often when these matters are discussed, one hears the phrase
"it's a different world now" or something equivalent. The thrust
seems to be that the changed circumstances from other condition
of world affairs is what mandates the apparently outlandish
restrictions being mooted.
This, it seems to me, is a rather impressive claim, if it's
true, and yet I'm yet to hear anyone say precisely what they
mean by this, apart from the vague wave of the hand in the
direction of suicide bombers and the internet. How precisely, is
the world different these days?
|
"Precisely"? You may have to get Peter Olcott to explain it to you.
You've pointed out some differences: The world in which travelers
within their own country were required to produce "papers" on
demand was one derided by my teachers during my formative years.
The idea that the police could come and take people away without
ever charging them with a crime or allowing them to defend
themselves in a court was regarded as totalitarian and barbaric.
One nation conquering another on a whim was labelled "aggression",
and classed among those activities that provoked war crimes
tribunals.
From a historical perspective, none of these things are novel, so
the world hasn't really changed. What is new is that the nations
claiming world leadership are consciously adopting tools and
tactics they used to deplore as a matter of policy. They justify
this on the grounds of security, in much the same way corporations
proclaim that their new intrusive policies are being introduced
"for your convenience". The labels are just smokescreens. Terror is
the new red.
--
rzed |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:32 pm
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:03:21 +0000, Charles Riggs <chriggs@éircom.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On 30 Oct 2005 01:01:52 -0700, "The Other Fran"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, Australia
is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of frivolous
legal principles like habeus corpus and the right to avoid punishment
without trial. A system of laws involving preventive detention for up
to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home detention with ankle
bracelets and restrictions on communication with others is in the
process of development as I write in order, it is argued, to deal with
the threat of "terror".
I was distressed about this and said so some weeks ago. I got a big
ho-hum from Brits John Dean and crew. The parliament, I notice, is
less unconcerned.
|
No "ho hum" from this quarter - nor about the way in which British citizens can
be extradited to the US with no prima facie evidence :-
"Without the requirement to present a case before requesting extradition, the US
is able to accuse UK citizens and residents of all manner of heinous crimes
without ever producing evidence. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1462302,00.html
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Linz
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:11 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:03:21 +0000, Charles Riggs <chriggs@éircom.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | I was distressed about this and said so some weeks ago. I got a big
ho-hum from Brits John Dean and crew. The parliament, I notice, is
less unconcerned.
|
Hey, John, you've got a crew!
--
The point of education is to correct ignorance. It cannot deal with stupidity.
(Mortimer Hebblethwaite, uk.misc) |
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:32 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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On 30 Oct 2005 01:01:52 -0700, "The Other Fran" <fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, Australia
is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of frivolous
legal principles like habeus corpus and the right to avoid punishment
without trial. A system of laws involving preventive detention for up
to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home detention with ankle
bracelets and restrictions on communication with others is in the
process of development as I write in order, it is argued, to deal with
the threat of "terror".
Often when these matters are discussed, one hears the phrase "it's a
different world now" or something equivalent. The thrust seems to be
that the changed circumstances from other condition of world affairs is
what mandates the apparently outlandish restrictions being mooted.
This, it seems to me, is a rather impressive claim, if it's true, and
yet I'm yet to hear anyone say precisely what they mean by this, apart
from the vague wave of the hand in the direction of suicide bombers and
the internet. How precisely, is the world different these days?
|
It is different in that the political leaders of countries like Britain and
the USA, which used to be in the forefront of promoting values like freedom,
democracy, justice and human rights, have decided that such rights are
obsolete, and in any cae are less important that their own freedom to throw
their weight around.
In 1963, when South Africa introduced 90-day detention without trial,
democratic coutnries around the world rightly denounced it as an abuse of
human rights.
Among the most vociferous in denouncing it was the British Labour Party.
Now South Africa has abolished detention without trial, and the leader of the
British Labour Party is ontroducing it.
So it is indeed a different world from what it was 40 years ago. The ghost of
B.J. Vorster rules Britain.
There are some serious flaws in South African democracy, but on the matter of
detention without trial, the pupil has surpassed the teacher, and the teachers
have chosen to learn from the likes of Hitler and Stalin and Co. Europe of the
1930s was a different world too, with dictators everywhere.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:20 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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In message <v2a9m1h0irogekhmq6s1ulj85s51dc7549@4ax.com>, Charles Riggs
<chriggs@?.net.invalid> writes
| Quote: | On 30 Oct 2005 01:01:52 -0700, "The Other Fran"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote:
Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, Australia
is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of frivolous
legal principles like habeus corpus and the right to avoid punishment
without trial. A system of laws involving preventive detention for up
to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home detention with ankle
bracelets and restrictions on communication with others is in the
process of development as I write in order, it is argued, to deal with
the threat of "terror".
I was distressed about this and said so some weeks ago. I got a big
ho-hum from Brits John Dean and crew. The parliament, I notice, is
less unconcerned.
|
I, and maybe others, try ever so hard to keep off philosophical and
political topics here, unless I can inject a scintilla of usage interest
into my words. (Often, I doubt that they hold any interest whatsoever,
but whatthehell.)
But this is a serious issue, and yes, I am very concerned. I don't
elect MPs in order to have them behave like headmasters adding to the
school rules. I'm sorry to say that the longer I live, the less respect
I can muster for the careerists in House of Commons.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:46 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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The Other Fran wrote:
| Quote: | Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine,
|
You don't have to imagine the US and Britain -- they exist.
| Quote: | Australia is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of
frivolous legal principles like habeus corpus
|
Oy!
| Quote: | and the right to avoid
punishment without trial. A system of laws involving preventive
detention for up to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home
detention with ankle bracelets and restrictions on communication with
others is in the process of development as I write in order, it is
argued, to deal with the threat of "terror".
|
Like, huh?
| Quote: | Often when these matters are discussed, one hears the phrase "it's a
different world now" or something equivalent. The thrust seems to be
that the changed circumstances from other condition of world affairs
is what mandates the apparently outlandish restrictions being mooted.
|
Gosh, I wish I could understand what you're trying to say.
| Quote: | This, it seems to me, is a rather impressive claim, if it's true, and
yet I'm yet to hear anyone say precisely what they mean by this, apart
from the vague wave of the hand in the direction of suicide bombers
and the internet. How precisely, is the world different these days?
|
Wow. You surely put things differently. What are you talking about? What
claim? I'm sorry to be so dense. Maybe it's the changing of the clocks
last night that's having an effect on me.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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The Other Fran
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:04 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | The Other Fran wrote:
Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine,
You don't have to imagine the US and Britain -- they exist.
|
Hmm, perhaps it would have been better had I said:
"Of late, Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, has moved
to ..."
I'm interested in why you claim that "imagine" refers here to a
conception of the existence of the US and Britain.
| Quote: | Australia is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of
frivolous legal principles like habeus corpus
Oy!
|
Sorry, but you'll need to clarify that "Oy!", or is it simply that you
don't like "like" in this place?
| Quote: | and the right to avoid
punishment without trial. A system of laws involving preventive
detention for up to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home
detention with ankle bracelets and restrictions on communication with
others is in the process of development as I write in order, it is
argued, to deal with the threat of "terror".
Like, huh?
|
Yet you like it here.
| Quote: | Often when these matters are discussed, one hears the phrase "it's a
different world now" or something equivalent. The thrust seems to be
that the changed circumstances from other condition of world affairs
is what mandates the apparently outlandish restrictions being mooted.
Gosh, I wish I could understand what you're trying to say.
|
So do I. That's why I wrote it.
| Quote: | This, it seems to me, is a rather impressive claim, if it's true, and
yet I'm yet to hear anyone say precisely what they mean by this, apart
from the vague wave of the hand in the direction of suicide bombers
and the internet. How precisely, is the world different these days?
Wow. You surely put things differently. What are you talking about? What
claim? I'm sorry to be so dense. Maybe it's the changing of the clocks
last night that's having an effect on me.
--
|
The others seem to understand, but perhaps I can clarify.
Basic Summary:
* Government changing laws so as to permit detention of persons without
trial and also home detention with restrictions on communication with
others
* this justified on the basis that the world is "different" now or
similar vague claims
OP asks: "what does this claim entail in practice?"
Also, (implied): "Is this claim suficient to warrant the changes?"
Is that, like, fair enough, like?
TOF
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:07 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:46:35 -0800, "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | The Other Fran wrote:
Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine,
You don't have to imagine the US and Britain -- they exist.
|
It's an odd construction, but there's nothing about it to indicate
that either the US or Britain is to be imagined.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:19 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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The Other Fran wrote:
| Quote: | Skitt wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine,
You don't have to imagine the US and Britain -- they exist.
Hmm, perhaps it would have been better had I said:
"Of late, Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, has moved
to ..."
I'm interested in why you claim that "imagine" refers here to a
conception of the existence of the US and Britain.
|
That's because there isn't a comma before "I imagine", thus changing the
intended meaning.
| Quote: | Australia is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of
frivolous legal principles like habeus corpus
Oy!
Sorry, but you'll need to clarify that "Oy!", or is it simply that you
don't like "like" in this place?
|
You really dont' know? It's "habeas corpus".
| Quote: | and the right to avoid
punishment without trial. A system of laws involving preventive
detention for up to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home
detention with ankle bracelets and restrictions on communication
with others is in the process of development as I write in order,
it is argued, to deal with the threat of "terror".
Like, huh?
Yet you like it here.
|
No, my "Like, huh?" was indicating my complete lack of understanding of what
you wrote. As I indicated below, it may be my fault. Watching a football
game while reading newsgroups might also have something to do with it.
| Quote: | Often when these matters are discussed, one hears the phrase "it's a
different world now" or something equivalent. The thrust seems to be
that the changed circumstances from other condition of world affairs
is what mandates the apparently outlandish restrictions being
mooted.
Gosh, I wish I could understand what you're trying to say.
So do I. That's why I wrote it.
This, it seems to me, is a rather impressive claim, if it's true,
and yet I'm yet to hear anyone say precisely what they mean by
this, apart from the vague wave of the hand in the direction of
suicide bombers and the internet. How precisely, is the world
different these days?
Wow. You surely put things differently. What are you talking
about? What claim? I'm sorry to be so dense. Maybe it's the
changing of the clocks last night that's having an effect on me.
The others seem to understand, but perhaps I can clarify.
Basic Summary:
* Government changing laws so as to permit detention of persons
without trial and also home detention with restrictions on
communication with others
* this justified on the basis that the world is "different" now or
similar vague claims
OP asks: "what does this claim entail in practice?"
Also, (implied): "Is this claim suficient to warrant the changes?"
Is that, like, fair enough, like?
|
Thanks, that's better. Why didn't you write something like that to start
with? Oh, and the "likes" were never what I liked or disliked.
I've got to get back to the game now ...
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:50 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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"The Other Fran" <fran_beta@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130659312.654695.41630@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine, Australia
is moving to clamp down on the profligate application of frivolous
legal principles like habeus corpus and the right to avoid punishment
without trial. A system of laws involving preventive detention for up
to two weeks, along with "control orders" (home detention with ankle
bracelets and restrictions on communication with others is in the
process of development as I write in order, it is argued, to deal with
the threat of "terror".
|
The OP is unrealistic suggesting any country confers any
" right to avoid punishment" with or without trial.
Modern constitutions recognize that detention in prison
is punishment, so Habeas Corpus provides that no one should
be detained except on a judge's order and when charged with
a (serious) crime. This is not a "right to avoid punishment without trial."
It is a practical attempt to protect everyone against frivolous
persecution by police, and is suspended when a general emergency
has been recognized (commonly in wartime.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:01 am
Post subject: Re: "It's a different world now" |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | "Skitt" wrote:
The Other Fran wrote:
Of late in Australia, much like the US and Britain I imagine,
You don't have to imagine the US and Britain -- they exist.
It's an odd construction, but there's nothing about it to indicate
that either the US or Britain is to be imagined.
|
There sure is -- the lack of a comma. "I imagine" was meant to be a
parenthetical phrase, but the lacking comma didn't make it such and changed
the meaning.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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