| Author |
Message |
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:01 am
Post subject: Correct pronoun case use. |
|
|
Can someone straighten us out?
We are confused about an exercise from "Writing Fundaentals". The
sentence is,
(Who/Whom) were you supposed to report to this morning?
The answer in the book is 'Who'. I would want to say 'To Whom', but
that's not a possibility. We don't understand the construction of the
sentence, or why 'who' is correct. We also don't know how the sentence
would be constructed if the meaning were "I know someone did something
wrong, and you're supposed to report it, but I don't remember who it
was."
We are looking forward to reading your replies.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Robert Lieblich
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Correct pronoun case use. |
|
|
can_dori@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Can someone straighten us out?
We are confused about an exercise from "Writing Fundaentals". The
sentence is,
(Who/Whom) were you supposed to report to this morning?
The answer in the book is 'Who'. I would want to say 'To Whom', but
that's not a possibility. We don't understand the construction of the
sentence, or why 'who' is correct. We also don't know how the sentence
would be constructed if the meaning were "I know someone did something
wrong, and you're supposed to report it, but I don't remember who it
was."
We are looking forward to reading your replies.
|
Taking the longer sentence first, "who it was" is a dependent clause
in which "who" is the subject. The entire clause is the direct object
of "remember," but that's a property of the entire clause. "Who"
takes its case from its role *within* the clause, so it's in the
subjective cases.
As for the sentence in the book, you don't need to rewrite it or go
into all sorts of analyses of its meaning. Its grammar is right on
the surface. The problem is that both you and the book are correct,
even though you disagree. Your answer ("whom") is correct in
traditional English grammar, but most contemporary native speakers and
writers, except when writing very formal prose, use "who." English
seems to have developed a new rule that states: At the beginning of
sentences, use "who" rather than "whom," no matter what the grammar of
the rest of the sentence is. So it's hard to criticize either "who"
or "whom" as wrong in your example sentence.
As for why the book recommends "who," I see two possibilitiess: (1)
The author is trying to teach current informal usage, or (2) The
author is trying to teach traditional formal usage and screwed up.
Without knowing the book, that's all I can surmise.
--
Bob Lieblich
Admiral Whom (no relation to Dr. Whom) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CDB
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Correct pronoun case use. |
|
|
<can_dori@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1130650518.471913.222580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Can someone straighten us out?
We are confused about an exercise from "Writing Fundaentals". The
sentence is,
(Who/Whom) were you supposed to report to this morning?
The answer in the book is 'Who'. I would want to say 'To Whom', but
that's not a possibility. We don't understand the construction of
the
sentence, or why 'who' is correct. We also don't know how the
sentence
would be constructed if the meaning were "I know someone did
something
wrong, and you're supposed to report it, but I don't remember who it
was."
We are looking forward to reading your replies.
|
"Whom" is an endangered word. "Who were you supposed to report to?"
is idiomatic; most people would probably say or write it that way, at
least in an informal context. It is not correct according to the
rules of traditional grammar, however. You are quite right that in
strictly formal speech or writing it would be "To whom were you
supposed to report?"
I would understand your last sentence, as written, to mean "I don't
remember who it was that did something." The sentence is somewhat
informal in its construction, so I think you could convey the other
meaning by ending it "... but I don't remember who to," but the
strictly correct version would be "... but I don't remember to whom."
You might also say "... and you're supposed to report it to someone,
but I don't know who that is." I wrote "say" advisedly; tone and
emphasis can help out where the construction is a little loose.
I am a speaker of North American English, from Canada.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gary Eickmeier
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Correct pronoun case use. |
|
|
CDB wrote:
| Quote: | "Whom" is an endangered word. "Who were you supposed to report to?"
is idiomatic; most people would probably say or write it that way, at
least in an informal context. It is not correct according to the
rules of traditional grammar, however. You are quite right that in
strictly formal speech or writing it would be "To whom were you
supposed to report?"
I would understand your last sentence, as written, to mean "I don't
remember who it was that did something." The sentence is somewhat
informal in its construction, so I think you could convey the other
meaning by ending it "... but I don't remember who to," but the
strictly correct version would be "... but I don't remember to whom."
You might also say "... and you're supposed to report it to someone,
but I don't know who that is." I wrote "say" advisedly; tone and
emphasis can help out where the construction is a little loose.
I am a speaker of North American English, from Canada.
|
I sort of hope that "whom" doesn't lose its place in the language,
because I'm thinking it serves a purpose in certain situations and
constructions that would lose meaning if we didn't have it. We still
seem to need he and him, she and her. Who and whom would be the
interrogative equivalent, with equal justification for being. Can anyone
think of examples where case is required for clarity of meaning?
Gary Eickmeier |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:05 am
Post subject: Re: Correct pronoun case use. |
|
|
The author of the book is Joseph T. Lyons. The title is "Writing
Fundamentals, fourth edition. It's published by Prentice-Hall Canada,
Inc.
There is another sentence that confuses us. "It must have been
(they/them) whom we heard in the kitchen last evening." The book shows
'they' as the correct answer.
Since 'whom' is objective and 'them' is objective, why wouldn't the
answer be 'them'? Can one tell by flipping the sentence and saying 'we
heard them' (although that would mean that 'they' is wrong.) What if
the sentence were "It must have been they who went to Seattle last
summer." At least that seems more like a subject.
Thanks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert Lieblich
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:01 am
Post subject: Re: Correct pronoun case use. |
|
|
can_dori@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: |
The author of the book is Joseph T. Lyons. The title is "Writing
Fundamentals, fourth edition. It's published by Prentice-Hall Canada,
Inc.
There is another sentence that confuses us. "It must have been
(they/them) whom we heard in the kitchen last evening." The book shows
'they' as the correct answer.
Since 'whom' is objective and 'them' is objective, why wouldn't the
answer be 'them'? Can one tell by flipping the sentence and saying 'we
heard them' (although that would mean that 'they' is wrong.) What if
the sentence were "It must have been they who went to Seattle last
summer." At least that seems more like a subject.
|
Pronouns take their case from the clause in which they are located.
The example sentence has a dependent clause " whom we heard in the
kitchen last evening," and "whom" is in the objective case because it
is the direct object of "heard" within the dependent clause. That's a
very important point -- whom" is the object of "heard," not "they" (or
"them"). The subject of the indepedent clause is "we." Untangled,
it's "we heard whom," not "we heard them [or "they"]."
"They" is part of the independent clause. The verb of the independent
clause is "must have been," which is a form of "to be" with
auxiliaries, and "to be" is intransitive and therefore cannot take an
object. "They" is the predicate nominative (or the subject, with "it"
a dummy subject; the result is the same either way) within the
independent clause. It therefore takes the nominative form.
In recent years there has been quite a bit of slippage in the use of
"who" and "whom" and "I" and "me," but in questions like the example
one, "they" is both traditionally correct and idiomatic.
Please use this URL for tips on how to post using Google:
<http://www.alt-usage-english.org/intro_a.shtml#Responding>.
--
Bob Lieblich
Idiom savant |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Raymond S. Wise
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:01 am
Post subject: Re: Correct pronoun case use. |
|
|
can_dori@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | The author of the book is Joseph T. Lyons. The title is "Writing
Fundamentals, fourth edition. It's published by Prentice-Hall Canada,
Inc.
There is another sentence that confuses us. "It must have been
(they/them) whom we heard in the kitchen last evening." The book shows
'they' as the correct answer.
Since 'whom' is objective and 'them' is objective, why wouldn't the
answer be 'them'? Can one tell by flipping the sentence and saying 'we
heard them' (although that would mean that 'they' is wrong.) What if
the sentence were "It must have been they who went to Seattle last
summer." At least that seems more like a subject.
Thanks.
|
"Be" is a copulative verb. In traditional grammar one would say "It is
they" because "it" and "they" are both in the subjective case when
joined by a copulative verb. ("It is they" sounds rather strange
nowadays: Most standard speakers would now say "It's them." But I take
it you are interesting in learning the traditional rules.)
As for "whom," in the clause "whom we heard in the kitchen last
evening" it is the object of the verb "heard" and, according to
traditional rules, must be in the objective case.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:24 am
Post subject: Re: Correct pronoun case use. |
|
|
Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: | can_dori@yahoo.com wrote:
There is another sentence that confuses us. "It must have been
(they/them) whom we heard in the kitchen last evening." The book shows
'they' as the correct answer.
Pronouns take their case from the clause in which they are located.
The example sentence has a dependent clause " whom we heard in the
kitchen last evening," and "whom" is in the objective case because it
is the direct object of "heard" within the dependent clause. That's a
very important point -- whom" is the object of "heard," not "they" (or
"them"). The subject of the indepedent clause is "we." Untangled,
it's "we heard whom," not "we heard them [or "they"]."
"They" is part of the independent clause. The verb of the independent
clause is "must have been," which is a form of "to be" with
auxiliaries, and "to be" is intransitive and therefore cannot take an
object. "They" is the predicate nominative (or the subject, with "it"
a dummy subject; the result is the same either way) within the
independent clause. It therefore takes the nominative form.
In recent years there has been quite a bit of slippage in the use of
"who" and "whom" and "I" and "me," but in questions like the example
one, "they" is both traditionally correct and idiomatic.
|
Many Thanks to you, and to the person in the next post who answered as
well. You answers really helped clairify this subject for us.
I looked at this URL, but am not sure how to follow it. When I first
clicked 'reply', a blank window opened. There was no text in it. This
time, I clicked something that said 'options'. That gave me several
more selections, but the only one that made sense just gave me the text
of your message. Is there something I can (or should be clicking) that
gives me the option of selecting from any of the messages?
Thanks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in