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batdorf
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:22 am
Post subject: shall...or...will |
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In ten days time I am going to see Madrid play Zaragoza...Heaven!
My friend asks me "Do you think you'll enjoy it?"
Silly question, really.
My answer...Should it be:
"I certainly *shall*" or "I certainly *will* ?
HumphreyB |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 00:22:12 +0200, batdorf wrote:
| Quote: | In ten days time I am going to see Madrid play Zaragoza...Heaven!
My friend asks me "Do you think you'll enjoy it?"
Silly question, really.
My answer...Should it be:
"I certainly *shall*" or "I certainly *will* ?
|
<non-native English speaker>
_If_ you normally use both, I believe "will" is inappropriate, but someone
may differ. If you only use "will"---as most people do---well, use it.
I hope I'm not mistaken.
Bye, FB
--
Marcel: Gentlemen, may I present Miss Betty DeBoop from the Islands?
Colonel Schlissel: Caribbean or Virgin?
Betty DeBoop: Well, let's just say I came back a Caribbean.
(The Cheap Detective) |
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John_Kane@tricolour.queen
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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batdorf wrote:
| Quote: | In ten days time I am going to see Madrid play Zaragoza...Heaven!
My friend asks me "Do you think you'll enjoy it?"
Silly question, really.
My answer...Should it be:
"I certainly *shall*" or "I certainly *will* ?
HumphreyB
I would say either is perfectly acceptable. "I certainly *shall* " |
sounds to me like there is a bit of determination there.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada |
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Wayne Leman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:09 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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"batdorf" <bat@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3sd28jFnlah5U1@individual.net...
| Quote: | In ten days time I am going to see Madrid play Zaragoza...Heaven!
My friend asks me "Do you think you'll enjoy it?"
Silly question, really.
My answer...Should it be:
"I certainly *shall*" or "I certainly *will* ?
|
In English "grammar school" (!) I was taught to use "shall" with first
person and "will" with other persons. Few people seem to follow this rule
anymore, so it looks like it's no longer a matter for concern for English
grammaticality, except, perhaps for pedantic editors (sometimes I am one of
them). In other words, it no longer seems to be a rule of English grammar,
since English rules are actually made by social convention, not by grammar
books or teachers, both of which *should* simply be reflecting good language
usage, where "good" is defined by a majority of good speakers.
Feel free to use either one, whichever sounds good to you. I don't think
very many people will notice either way.
I certainly shall not!! :-)
Wayne
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:11 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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batdorf wrote:
| Quote: | In ten days time I am going to see Madrid play Zaragoza...Heaven!
My friend asks me "Do you think you'll enjoy it?"
Silly question, really.
My answer...Should it be:
"I certainly *shall*" or "I certainly will ?
HumphreyB
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Depends on whether you're a Ollie Hardy fan or not...
DC Mm, mm. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:25 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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Wayne Leman filted:
| Quote: |
In English "grammar school" (!) I was taught to use "shall" with first
person and "will" with other persons. Few people seem to follow this rule
anymore, so it looks like it's no longer a matter for concern for English
grammaticality, except, perhaps for pedantic editors (sometimes I am one of
them). In other words, it no longer seems to be a rule of English grammar,
since English rules are actually made by social convention, not by grammar
books or teachers, both of which *should* simply be reflecting good language
usage, where "good" is defined by a majority of good speakers.
|
I never got a truly understandable explanation of the rule, if rule there be,
but from those who tried, I got the impression that first-person "shall" and
second-or-third-person "will" were used for simple statements of fact ("I shall
be in Poughkeepsie next Thursday", "He will receive his diploma in 2008")...the
reverse of these were said to reflect determination (for first-person "will")
and imperative; "I *will* keep this turnip down!", "You *shall* clean your room
tonight!"...or maybe it was the other way around....
Like much of what I was taught in those days, this may well be rubbish....
(What's that Japanese verb for "to want" that can't be used in anything but the
first person?..."negau", I think)....r |
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batdorf
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:09 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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"Django Cat" <nospam@please> escribió en el mensaje
news:G7mdnRTzyoQhw_zenZ2dnUVZ8qednZ2d@brightview.com...
| Quote: | Depends on whether you're a Ollie Hardy fan or not...
Madridista. |
Can't remember the last time we played Oliver Hardy.
HumphreyB |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:41 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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"batdorf" <bat@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3sd8i2Fn9bnvU1@individual.net...
| Quote: |
"Django Cat" <nospam@please> escribió en el mensaje
news:G7mdnRTzyoQhw_zenZ2dnUVZ8qednZ2d@brightview.com...
Depends on whether you're a Ollie Hardy fan or not...
Madridista.
Can't remember the last time we played Oliver Hardy.
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"Madrileño" but not "madrilista". Can you shed any light on this? |
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batdorf
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:48 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> escribió en el mensaje
news:Vse8f.510$XR4.1745@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
| Quote: | "Madrileño" but not "madrilista". Can you shed any light on this?
Madrileño is someone who lives in or hails from Madrid (noun or |
adjective)...and there might be a polemic about that between madrileños!
Madridista is a fan of Real Madrid (and NOT of Atlético Madrid!)
HumphreyB |
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Fred
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:52 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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"Django Cat" <nospam@please> wrote in message
news:G7mdnRTzyoQhw_zenZ2dnUVZ8qednZ2d@brightview.com...
| Quote: | batdorf wrote:
In ten days time I am going to see Madrid play Zaragoza...Heaven!
My friend asks me "Do you think you'll enjoy it?"
Silly question, really.
My answer...Should it be:
"I certainly *shall*" or "I certainly will ?
HumphreyB
Depends on whether you're a Ollie Hardy fan or not...
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I notice a growing trend to use 'a' instead of 'an' prior to a vowel, both
in speech and in writing. |
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iwasaki
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:08 am
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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"R H Draney" wrote in message ...
| Quote: |
(What's that Japanese verb for "to want" that can't be used in anything
but the
first person?..."negau", I think)....r
|
But you can "negau" to do anything. He or they can negau, too.
I can't think of other Japanese verb "to want" that is used only
in the first person, though.
--
Nobuko Iwasaki |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:32 pm
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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On 27 Oct 2005 16:25:56 -0700, R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Wayne Leman filted:
In English "grammar school" (!) I was taught to use "shall" with first
person and "will" with other persons. Few people seem to follow this rule
anymore, so it looks like it's no longer a matter for concern for English
grammaticality, except, perhaps for pedantic editors (sometimes I am one of
them). In other words, it no longer seems to be a rule of English grammar,
since English rules are actually made by social convention, not by grammar
books or teachers, both of which *should* simply be reflecting good language
usage, where "good" is defined by a majority of good speakers.
I never got a truly understandable explanation of the rule, if rule there be,
but from those who tried, I got the impression that first-person "shall" and
second-or-third-person "will" were used for simple statements of fact ("I shall
be in Poughkeepsie next Thursday", "He will receive his diploma in 2008")...the
reverse of these were said to reflect determination (for first-person "will")
and imperative; "I *will* keep this turnip down!", "You *shall* clean your room
tonight!"...or maybe it was the other way around....
Like much of what I was taught in those days, this may well be rubbish....
|
My mother had an example she used to roll out :-
I will drown and no one shall save me.
(It is my firm intent to drown myself, and no one is to be allowed to
intervene).
I shall drown, and no one will save me.
(I find myself drowning, and no one intends to save me)
As others have commented, I do not think that such niceties of usage are
currently upheld.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:32:24 GMT, Jim Lawton wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | As others have commented, I do not think that such niceties of usage are
currently upheld.
|
<non-native English speaker>
I've discarded "shall" except in questions (after much---well known
here---reflection), because I couldn't bear that its tentative form,
"should", was virtually unusable [1]: I didn't like the inconsistency of
this. Besides, "should", if used like that, is liable to misunderstandings
(not in the above sentence) [2]. Therefore, "would" being wrong in such
sentences (plain future/conditional) according to traditional grammar, it's
all the more sensible to use it, because it doesn't mean anything else.
That is to say it's very fortunate that there's a gap of meaning that can
be taken advantage of.
[1] "If I fell into the lake and you didn't rescue me, I should drown".
This "should" is virtually unusable---isn't it?---and indeed there are
people who would say "I shall drown" but "I would drown" in that sentence.
This timid use of "shall" but not "should" (except notorious "I should
think/say", maybe "like") thus sounded like following a losing suit; like
using "shall" like a weapon, as it were, a symbol, not as a modal.
[2] Unless, as the NSOED suggests, you replace it with "would", which in
this case only need not imply volition. It seems definitely inconsistent.
Bye, FB
--
"May I come with you to the station?"
"Please, do. I like to go off in style."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film) |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:05 pm
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> writes:
| Quote: | Wayne Leman writes:
In English "grammar school" (!) I was taught to use "shall" with first
person and "will" with other persons. Few people seem to follow this rule
anymore, so it looks like it's no longer a matter for concern for English
grammaticality, except, perhaps for pedantic editors (sometimes I am one of
them). In other words, it no longer seems to be a rule of English grammar,
since English rules are actually made by social convention, not by grammar
books or teachers, both of which *should* simply be reflecting good language
usage, where "good" is defined by a majority of good speakers.
I never got a truly understandable explanation of the rule, if rule there
be, but from those who tried, I got the impression that first-person
"shall" and second-or-third-person "will" were used for simple statements
of fact ("I shall be in Poughkeepsie next Thursday", "He will receive his
diploma in 2008")...the reverse of these were said to reflect determination
(for first-person "will") and imperative; "I *will* keep this turnip
down!", "You *shall* clean your room tonight!"...or maybe it was the other
way around....
Like much of what I was taught in those days, this may well be rubbish....
|
Alas, it is. Nobody has ever spoken that way naturally; it's pure
affectation, imposed by the usual suspects (google on Lowth). In
Modern English, "shall" is pretty limited in its usage. It normally
appears only in interrogative sentences with first-person subjects
that are intended to count as offers or invitations:
Shall we dance?
Shall I open the window?
Other than that, it's not used, except by those who've
been affected in their youth by the affectation.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: shall...or...will |
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FB wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:32:24 GMT, Jim Lawton wrote:
[...]
As others have commented, I do not think that such niceties of
usage
are currently upheld.
non-native English speaker
I've discarded "shall" except in questions (after much---well known
here---reflection), because I couldn't bear that its tentative
form,
"should", was virtually unusable [1]: I didn't like the
inconsistency
of this. Besides, "should", if used like that, is liable to
misunderstandings (not in the above sentence) [2]. Therefore,
"would"
being wrong in such sentences (plain future/conditional) according
to
traditional grammar, it's all the more sensible to use it, because
it
doesn't mean anything else. That is to say it's very fortunate that
there's a gap of meaning that can be taken advantage of.
[1] "If I fell into the lake and you didn't rescue me, I should
drown". This "should" is virtually unusable---isn't it?---and
indeed
there are people who would say "I shall drown" but "I would drown"
in
that sentence. This timid use of "shall" but not "should" (except
notorious "I should think/say", maybe "like") thus sounded like
following a losing suit; like using "shall" like a weapon, as it
were, a symbol, not as a modal.
[2] Unless, as the NSOED suggests, you replace it with "would",
which
in this case only need not imply volition. It seems definitely
inconsistent.
|
I think the inconsistency we often see even among inveterate British
"sh"-users is just a sign of the usage's incredibly slow death. I
rather like it, though it took me years to learn it (I come from a
"w"-using community).
--
Mike. |
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