| Author |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:21 pm
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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"Bertel Lund Hansen" <nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> wrote in message
news:hdpdxr28dvbp.v4qctqwyhp1n$.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | CDB skrev:
Rößlein, Rößlein, Rößlein rot,
Rößlein auf der Heiden ...
Thought that was "Röslein rot".
It is. I was trying to be FUNNY.
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Pooh. So was I, before you got out the secateurs.
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> writes:
| Quote: | Skitt wrote:
Don Phillipson wrote:
"retrosorter" wrote:
What is the Danish origin in "Danish pastry"? . . . [or] when
the term ""Danish pastry" is first recoded in English? Thanks
Danish Pastry was in the 1950s an Americanism i.e. not used in
Britain (whatever was on the table.) Naming food for its
supposed origins is common, cf. hamburger, wiener, French fries
etc. One of the reasons may be that cooks for centuries
apparently traveled much more than other craftsmen i.e. often
found receptive palates overseas for recipes from home.
MWCD10 dates "Danish pastry" at 1928. It does not mention its
etymology.
MWCD11 online pushes the date back to 1921.
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It looks as though it may be possible to push the name back just a bit
further and more precisely. At
http://www.barrypopik.com/article/49/danish-pastry
you'll find excerpts from a 5-page ad "article" entitled "Danish
pastry" from the July, 1920, issue of _National Baker_. They credit
the introduction of the item to an L.C. Klitteng, "consulting baker of
the Isle of Laesoe, Denmark", whose "Danish Pastry" (always
capitalized) met with such success in New York that he decided to open
the Danish Culinary Studio in New York, to teach people "this art of
producing high grade pastry, either by practical demonstration or
through a correspondence course."
The ad also contains "extracts of letters from those who have tried
Danish Pastry as a commercial product", which implies that it wasn't
yet widely known.
The page also has
24 April 1920, Bakers Weekly, pg. 17 full page ad. A red & white
ad for "DANISH PASTRY BAKING SCHOOL." A photo shows "INSTRUCTOR
L. C. KLITTENG, ORIGINATOR OF DANISH PASTRY IN U.S.A." Instruction
begins June 1st, and the 14-day course covers 100 hours. It's at
the Danish Culinary Studio, 146 5th Ave, New York.
According to a 6/1/1920 article in _Bakers' Helper_, Klitteng came to
the US in 12/1915.
Neither Vienna nor any notion of what the pastries were called in
Denmark are mentioned.
So it appears that name comes from a concerted (and quite successful)
effort of a Danish baker to introduce a product, which he called
"Danish Pastry", into the US.
The page goes on to quote later articles that claim that Danish
pastry in the US is a bit older, crediting it to Lane L.M. Kleiting
"back at the turn of the century", who worked for Herman Gertner, "a
well-known Broadway restaurateur".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The vast majority of humans have
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |more than the average number of
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |legs.
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:17 am
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
| Quote: | Robert Bannister skrev:
The invasion of England by the Jutes was supposed to have been
led by two chiefs called Hengist and Horsa. Coincidence that
both names mean "horse" (OK, so Hengst is mare, but still a
horse).
The word "hingst" is an ordinary word in Danish, but it means
"stallion". It seems probable that it is derived from "hengist".
Are you sure it's a mare?
|
Robert is wrong -- "der Hengst" is a stallion.
| Quote: | But yes, a coincidence it is. On the other hand one may suppose
that, given the importance of horses at those times, such names
might have been common.
|
Not that I know of.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:50 am
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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CDB <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | "Bertel Lund Hansen" <nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> wrote in message
news:hdpdxr28dvbp.v4qctqwyhp1n$.dlg@40tude.net...
CDB skrev:
Rößlein, Rößlein, Rößlein rot,
Rößlein auf der Heiden ...
Thought that was "Röslein rot".
It is. I was trying to be FUNNY.
Pooh. So was I, before you got out the secateurs.
|
Les secateurs?
Jan |
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Bertel Lund Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:36 am
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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CDB skrev:
| Quote: | Rößlein, Rößlein, Rößlein rot,
Rößlein auf der Heiden ...
Thought that was "Röslein rot".
It is. I was trying to be FUNNY.
Pooh. So was I, before you got out the secateurs.
|
Was that dry humour?
--
Bertel
Denmark |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:13 am
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Robert Bannister skrev:
The invasion of England by the Jutes was supposed to have been
led by two chiefs called Hengist and Horsa. Coincidence that
both names mean "horse" (OK, so Hengst is mare, but still a
horse).
The word "hingst" is an ordinary word in Danish, but it means
"stallion". It seems probable that it is derived from "hengist".
Are you sure it's a mare?
Robert is wrong -- "der Hengst" is a stallion.
|
Being a city boy, I'm not very good with animal words either in German
or English.
| Quote: |
But yes, a coincidence it is. On the other hand one may suppose
that, given the importance of horses at those times, such names
might have been common.
Not that I know of.
|
I didn't know you were around in those days. I mentioned the names
because some scholars believed these two chiefs might have mythical
figures, but apparently they have now changed their minds. I have heard
that horses were worshipped in parts of Northern Europe, but I'm not sure.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Chris Waigl
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:33 am
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:54:52 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
| Quote: | Pat Durkin skrev:
Have you heard of "kringles" in Denmark?
Of course I have. One can't avoid knowing those either. "En
kringle" is something that has been wound around itself somehow,
and the bakers make them by folding and crossing the two ends of
a 'stick'. The kringle is not a specific recipe, but a shape one
can give for example wienerbrød.
|
When I think of a German equivalent of what is called "Danish (pastry)" in
English, I think of "Kringel". I've never come across a "Kopenhagener",
though, but I may have eaten some. A Kringel is shaped like a torus, but
with the ends still visible (not smoothed down).
| Quote: | I believe that the English word
for it is "pretzel".
|
Oops, "Brezel" is for me salty, made from a bread dough, and with a slick
brown surface created by treating the fully formed but unbaked thing with
highly concentrated salt water. There are sweet pastries of this form, but
they are outliers. The form is created by extending a bit of dough, making
a half-circle from it and then drawing the ends across each other -- you
can have them wind around each other once or twice -- before attaching
them to the inside of the half-circle.
| Quote: | Kan they be large? I have a picture in my
mind of a pretzel from the cover of an album with Steely Dan (Pretzel
Logic), but it was small.
Here is a fine picture of wienerbrød:
http://www.bager-kim.dk/tips/gyldne/wienerbrod.htm The first one at the
top is a kringle.
|
Interesting. This would be a Brezel-shaped sweet pastry for me. Here's a
Kringel: http://www.toolbox.ee/pages/menu/t2idiskringel.jpg
| Quote: | [snip]
"Fødselsdagskringle" - "birthday pretzel"? Usually in Denmark we serve
"lagkage" (layer cake) or "brunsviger" (another speciality that you may
not know and which you definitely should taste if ever you get the
chance) at a birthday party, but it wouldn't surprise me if some Danes
would serve kringle. The brunsviger is shaped as a man or a woman
depending on the childs sex, and consequently called a "kagemand" (cake
man) or "kagekone" (cake woman).
|
Any connection with Braunschweig (Brunswick)?
Chris Waigl
--
blog: http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
eggcorns: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/ |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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"J. J. Lodder" <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:1h5bdoi.mneh6m1vz2nwpN@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
| Quote: | CDB <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote:
"Bertel Lund Hansen" <nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> wrote in message
news:hdpdxr28dvbp.v4qctqwyhp1n$.dlg@40tude.net...
CDB skrev:
Rößlein, Rößlein, Rößlein rot,
Rößlein auf der Heiden ...
Thought that was "Röslein rot".
It is. I was trying to be FUNNY.
Pooh. So was I, before you got out the secateurs.
Les secateurs?
|
D'ac. <<Bah! Moi itou, jusqu'au point où tu m'as menacé des
sécateurs.>>
On the other hand,
www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/secateurs?view=uk |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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"Bertel Lund Hansen" <nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> wrote in message
news:1bikmbv3cknq8.33e3g2g1v82v$.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | CDB skrev:
Rößlein, Rößlein, Rößlein rot,
Rößlein auf der Heiden ...
Thought that was "Röslein rot".
It is. I was trying to be FUNNY.
Pooh. So was I, before you got out the secateurs.
Was that dry humour?
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Nah, bloomin' thorny, mite. |
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Ted Schuerzinger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:06 am
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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Somebody claiming to be Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote in
news:3snmt1Foi11cU1@individual.net:
| Quote: | Robert is wrong -- "der Hengst" is a stallion.
Being a city boy, I'm not very good with animal words either in German
or English.
|
You've got animals -- they're just called yobs and chavs.
--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
Oh Marge, anyone can miss Canada, all tucked away down there....
--Homer Simpson |
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Bertel Lund Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:04 pm
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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Robert Bannister skrev:
| Quote: | figures, but apparently they have now changed their minds. I have heard
that horses were worshipped in parts of Northern Europe, but I'm not sure.
|
It doesn't ring a bell with me. I remember drawings of horses
heads on sticks, but I think they were only sacrificed to the
gods. Thor's waggon was pulled by goates, not horses. Odin
however was riding the eight-legged horse Sleipner. I don't
recall other horses in the Northern myths.
--
Bertel
Denmark |
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Bertel Lund Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:12 pm
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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Chris Waigl skrev:
| Quote: | I believe that the English word
for it is "pretzel".
Oops, "Brezel" is for me salty, made from a bread dough, and with a slick
brown surface created by treating the fully formed but unbaked thing with
highly concentrated salt water.
|
We call that "saltkringle".
| Quote: | "Fødselsdagskringle" - "birthday pretzel"? Usually in Denmark we serve
"lagkage" (layer cake) or "brunsviger" (another speciality that you may
not know and which you definitely should taste if ever you get the
chance) at a birthday party
Any connection with Braunschweig (Brunswick)?
|
Yes, that is the name that has become our word, but I do not know
how or why. I suppose the brunsviger originated there, but I
don't know.
--
Bertel
Denmark |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
| Quote: | Robert Bannister skrev:
figures, but apparently they have now changed their minds. I have
heard that horses were worshipped in parts of Northern Europe, but
I'm not sure.
It doesn't ring a bell with me. I remember drawings of horses
heads on sticks, but I think they were only sacrificed to the
gods. Thor's waggon was pulled by goates, not horses. Odin
however was riding the eight-legged horse Sleipner. I don't
recall other horses in the Northern myths.
|
Some at least of the Celts had a horse-goddess, Epona. I'm
occasionally tempted by the notion that this may have something to do
with the reluctance of the British to eat horse-flesh (I don't think
this is an original idea).
--
Mike. |
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JF
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:58 pm
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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In message <3sp43rFp5ia0U3@individual.net>, Mike Lyle
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes
| Quote: | Some at least of the Celts had a horse-goddess, Epona. I'm
occasionally tempted by the notion that this may have something to do
with the reluctance of the British to eat horse-flesh (I don't think
this is an original idea).
|
And drink mares' milk. An Englishman would've made a lousy Ghengis
Kharn. |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:47 pm
Post subject: Re: danish origin in danish pastry |
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"Bertel Lund Hansen" <nospamfilius@lundhansen.dk> wrote in message
news:169e9hlnxg36s$.aauswjlxfe3c$.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | Chris Waigl skrev:
I believe that the English word
for it is "pretzel".
Oops, "Brezel" is for me salty, made from a bread dough, and with a
slick
brown surface created by treating the fully formed but unbaked thing
with
highly concentrated salt water.
We call that "saltkringle".
"Fødselsdagskringle" - "birthday pretzel"? Usually in Denmark we
serve
"lagkage" (layer cake) or "brunsviger" (another speciality that you
may
not know and which you definitely should taste if ever you get the
chance) at a birthday party
Any connection with Braunschweig (Brunswick)?
Yes, that is the name that has become our word, but I do not know
how or why. I suppose the brunsviger originated there, but I
don't know.
|
But here in US (or at least Wisconsin) Braunschweiger is a kind of liver
sausage. I wouldn't dream of associating it with pastries and other
delights.
Not that liver sausage is anything but a delight, mind you.
For the longest time I simply assumed Braun (brown) was the color of the
smoked liver sausage, which I thought of as "schweiger". Thus, a
particular kind of liver sausage.
Either way, great on rye bread with raw onions. |
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