| Author |
Message |
Xah Lee
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:08 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Was I being lordly again?
|
in the grand name of United Kingdom or the ways of the English, i deem
it not extraodinary to address Englishmen lord. Given that your email
signifies English, therefore i deem you Englishmen, thus lord would i
assume your address at times of fun. Contrast this with that of the
American, or the WASP, where lord would be very unfit, even for jovial
occasions. Was not Shakespeare's England (or Europe?) filled with
lordships and myladies. (^_^)
was it not so, even as of current, English paliament members are
addressed as lords? I recall some House of Lords. (^_^)
Xah
xah@xahlee.org
∑ http://xahlee.org/
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:09 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:56:47 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:07:46 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
Steve Pritchard <Steve_Pritchard@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1h5215x.tdj0t210tz4prN%trio@euronet.nl...
Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English.
Yes it is. In England.
Oh, good, thank you. With which meaning? Is it like "out of sorts"?
I would say that "You're out of order" would be unremarkable in AmE
outside of a courtroom setting. I can imagine that being said by a
teacher to a pupil that is sassing the teacher, or by anyone in
authority to a person who is doing something inappropriate.
I'm not saying it's the most common way of telling a person that their
behavior in inappropriate, but it's a viable choice. We see so many
courtroom dramas on television that we are used to the phrase and the
meaning.
Courtroom vocabulary - out of order, order in the court, I object,
exhibit A, objection overruled, etc - can be picked up and used in
everyday conversation. If it pleases your honor, I'd like to offer in
evidence that we can turn on the television and find an episode of
"Law and Order" on about any channel at any time of day or night.
[snip more]
Dear Tony and the other two who responded to that post -- the legal
sense of "being out of order" has absolutely nothing to do with the
Gulliver's Travel question. I daresay Xah Lee knew about the legal
sense. It doesn't fit. Nor does "out of sequence" or "not in working
order."
|
You may pay attention to Xah Lee, but I don't. I just saw something
in a post that relates to usage and ran with it a bit. The "You are
out of order" uttered by a teacher to a sassy student is not said in
the legal sense.
You may jump up and say "Objection. Not relevant.", though.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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William
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:09 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | So much for the beginners' class. We will now proceed, for our advanced
class, to examine current BrE "well out of order".
|
And next week... "Naw Shut it!" and "Look aht guv, E's got a shoo'er".
--
WH
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:04 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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On 26 Oct 2005 09:21:23 -0700, "Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
Well when I first saw this post, I was going to answer an unequivocal "yes", and
despite what others have said, I still shall.
I hear this all the time in everyday speech, and it's frequently used on TV.
"John brought his dog into the the theatre" - "That's a bit out of order".
"Bill told Mary to stop telling his wife how to behave, 'You're out of order,
Mary' he said."
Anyone who watches "Coronation St" will have heard "Danny" saying "You're out of
order, my son", to someone.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Tony Cooper and "Skitt" write:
| Quote: | "You're out of order" is delivered a bit more seriously than the other
examples, but courtroom expressions are no longer known only to the
lawyers, criminals, jury members, and witnesses of America. Anyone
that owns a television hears them every day.
Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.
Sustained. But what we have all learned from watching these courtroom
dramas is that a point made - even if the jury is ordered to disregard
the point - is a point made. What is said cannot be withdrawn even if
it is withdrawn.
|
Or: "You can't unring the bell, Your Honor."
--
Mark Brader | "Forgive me if I misunderstood myself, but
Toronto | I don't think I was arguing in favour of that..."
msb@vex.net | -- Geoff Butler |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:27 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Jim Lawton <usenet1@jimlawton.TAKEOUTinfo> wrote:
| Quote: | On 26 Oct 2005 09:21:23 -0700, "Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
Well when I first saw this post, I was going to answer an unequivocal
"yes", and despite what others have said, I still shall.
I hear this all the time in everyday speech, and it's frequently used on
TV.
"John brought his dog into the the theatre" - "That's a bit out of order".
"Bill told Mary to stop telling his wife how to behave, 'You're out of
order, Mary' he said."
Anyone who watches "Coronation St" will have heard "Danny" saying "You're
out of order, my son", to someone.
|
Of course *that* sense is used all the time. Vending machines are "out
of order," too. A bunch of file folders might be "out of order," as
well. None of those meanings fit the passage in question. Laura found
the OED listing for the 18th-century "ill, indisposed" sense.
I'm somewhat amazed at people's failure to follow the URL and read the
full question. Maybe it was the exclamation point in the Subject line
that threw them off, Xah Lee.
--
Agog and hornswoggled -- Donna Richoux |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:43 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Lawton <usenet1@jimlawton.TAKEOUTinfo> wrote:
On 26 Oct 2005 09:21:23 -0700, "Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
Well when I first saw this post, I was going to answer an unequivocal
"yes", and despite what others have said, I still shall.
I hear this all the time in everyday speech, and it's frequently used on
TV.
"John brought his dog into the the theatre" - "That's a bit out of order".
"Bill told Mary to stop telling his wife how to behave, 'You're out of
order, Mary' he said."
Anyone who watches "Coronation St" will have heard "Danny" saying "You're
out of order, my son", to someone.
Of course *that* sense is used all the time. Vending machines are "out
of order," too. A bunch of file folders might be "out of order," as
well. None of those meanings fit the passage in question. Laura found
the OED listing for the 18th-century "ill, indisposed" sense.
I'm somewhat amazed at people's failure to follow the URL and read the
full question. Maybe it was the exclamation point in the Subject line
that threw them off, Xah Lee.
|
I can explain my own failing in this regard. I don't normally read Xah
Lee's posts: my starting point in the thread was your response to the
original post.
In a perfect world I suppose we would all read the entire thread (and
the FAQ!) before making our own contribution but the selective reading
that is required to keep up with aue makes this pretty much impossible.
When people dive in without appreciating the content or tenor of earlier
posts, this can lead to repetition and misunderstanding. (I find it
quite irritating when people post identical comment to that which I have
posted upthread - especially if their post leads to interesting
discussion or thread drift while mine has been ignored!) But, in that
perfect world, all debate would be informed and rational and all sources
quoted would be authoritative - and it would all be rather boring.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Wood Avens
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:11 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:43:57 +0100, "Laura F. Spira"
<laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | I can explain my own failing in this regard. I don't normally read Xah
Lee's posts: my starting point in the thread was your response to the
original post.
|
In that case you probably missed his splendid reply to Mike, which I
reproduce for your delectation:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
Was I being lordly again?
in the grand name of United Kingdom or the ways of the English, i deem
it not extraodinary to address Englishmen lord. Given that your email
signifies English, therefore i deem you Englishmen, thus lord would i
assume your address at times of fun. Contrast this with that of the
American, or the WASP, where lord would be very unfit, even for jovial
occasions. Was not Shakespeare's England (or Europe?) filled with
lordships and myladies. (^_^)
was it not so, even as of current, English paliament members are
addressed as lords? I recall some House of Lords. (^_^)
|
This sort of thing has been going on far too lon, of course. I think
it's time we invented some new titles.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:18 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Wood Avens wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:43:57 +0100, "Laura F. Spira"
laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
I can explain my own failing in this regard. I don't normally read Xah
Lee's posts: my starting point in the thread was your response to the
original post.
In that case you probably missed his splendid reply to Mike, which I
reproduce for your delectation:
Mike Lyle wrote:
Was I being lordly again?
in the grand name of United Kingdom or the ways of the English, i deem
it not extraodinary to address Englishmen lord. Given that your email
signifies English, therefore i deem you Englishmen, thus lord would i
assume your address at times of fun. Contrast this with that of the
American, or the WASP, where lord would be very unfit, even for jovial
occasions. Was not Shakespeare's England (or Europe?) filled with
lordships and myladies. (^_^)
was it not so, even as of current, English paliament members are
addressed as lords? I recall some House of Lords. (^_^)
This sort of thing has been going on far too lon, of course. I think
it's time we invented some new titles.
|
I like the cats.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:46 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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|
Xah Lee wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
Was I being lordly again?
in the grand name of United Kingdom or the ways of the English, i
deem
it not extraodinary to address Englishmen lord.
|
Well _I_ deem it _most_ extraordinary.
| Quote: | Given that your email
signifies English, therefore i deem you Englishmen, thus lord would
i
assume your address at times of fun. [...]
|
Actually, that particular email address signifies -- in a wholly
untrustworthy but in this case generally truthful manner -- that I
may well be posting from Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, or even
England etc. Of my ethnicity, colour, creed, birthplace, or
nationality it says no more than it does of my sexual orientation, or
mental or physical disabilities, if any.
--
Mike. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Laura F. Spira wrote:
| Quote: | Wood Avens wrote:
[...] |
[X Lee typed:} (^_^)
| Quote: |
This sort of thing has been going on far too lon, of course. I
think
it's time we invented some new titles.
I like the cats.
|
I didn't recognise them till your prompt. Need whiskers, though...
| Quote: | ^_^< ... no, that looks like a damaged bon-bon (sorry, Christmas
coming: reviving my Strine.) |
--
Mike. |
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JF
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:54 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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|
X-No-Archive: yes
In message <djqi2b$7tc$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Laura F. Spira
<laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
| Quote: | (I find it quite irritating when people post identical comment to that
which I have posted upthread - especially if their post leads to
interesting discussion or thread drift while mine has been ignored!)
|
Dearest Laura,
I feel that these squirming, miserable rapscallions of aue are not
according you the attention that you undoubtedly deserve. Allow me to
lure you away to somewhere private and soundproof where I'll shower you
with compliments, Belgian chocolates, free wipes, and anything else you
dream about in your secret moments of outrageous fantasies.
--
James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk |
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CDB
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:40 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
|
|
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1h53ece.1183luestttogN%trio@euronet.nl...
| Quote: | Jim Lawton <usenet1@jimlawton.TAKEOUTinfo> wrote:
On 26 Oct 2005 09:21:23 -0700, "Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the
phrase.
Well when I first saw this post, I was going to answer an
unequivocal
"yes", and despite what others have said, I still shall.
I hear this all the time in everyday speech, and it's frequently
used on
TV.
"John brought his dog into the the theatre" - "That's a bit out of
order".
"Bill told Mary to stop telling his wife how to behave, 'You're out
of
order, Mary' he said."
Anyone who watches "Coronation St" will have heard "Danny" saying
"You're
out of order, my son", to someone.
Of course *that* sense is used all the time. Vending machines are
"out
of order," too. A bunch of file folders might be "out of order," as
well. None of those meanings fit the passage in question. Laura
found
the OED listing for the 18th-century "ill, indisposed" sense.
|
[...]
If any further confirmation of the "out of sorts" interpretation were
needed, googling on the book's title and the phrase finds another
example in Chapter V: "The Girl [still Glumdalclitch], who had been
out of Order, was carried by her Governess to take the air ... thirty
Miles from Town." |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:08 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
|
|
JF wrote:
| Quote: | X-No-Archive: yes
In message <djqi2b$7tc$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Laura F. Spira
laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
(I find it quite irritating when people post identical comment to that
which I have posted upthread - especially if their post leads to
interesting discussion or thread drift while mine has been ignored!)
Dearest Laura,
I feel that these squirming, miserable rapscallions of aue are not
according you the attention that you undoubtedly deserve. Allow me to
lure you away to somewhere private and soundproof where I'll shower you
with compliments, Belgian chocolates, free wipes, and anything else you
dream about in your secret moments of outrageous fantasies.
|
My dear James
How delightful! I am hugely flattered by your tempting offer but I need
to know one thing before I allow myself to be lured: can you sing? In
addition to the items you have identified, many of my fantasies include
single malt and serenades.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:40 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
|
|
William wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean wrote:
So much for the beginners' class. We will now proceed, for our
advanced class, to examine current BrE "well out of order".
And next week... "Naw Shut it!" and "Look aht guv, E's got a shoo'er".
|
Did you know that "Look aht guv, E's got a shoo'er" is to be used as the
starting signal for track events in the London Olympics instead of an
actual pistol? This is to give the home team athletes the opportunity to
make a faster start than the rest of the world. If any of the home team
athletes qualify, of cours.
--
John "put yer trahsers on, yer nicked" Dean
Oxford |
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