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Xah Lee
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Jordan Abel
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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On 2005-10-26, Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
| Quote: | Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English. It must be some expression from the
18th century, perhaps meaning "unavailable," perhaps meaning "not
feeling well." It could be in the OED.
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My first thought on the phrase as applied to a person would mean "in
violation of courtroom or parliamentary procedure" if i saw no other
context. |
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Cheryl Perkins
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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In alt.usage.english Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
| Quote: | Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English. It must be some expression from the
18th century, perhaps meaning "unavailable," perhaps meaning "not
feeling well." It could be in the OED.
|
I would have used it to mean 'behaving badly', in the sense that the
person was being extremely rude and domineering. I assumed that came
from the usage in Parliament. It doesn't fit the context in the Gulliver's
Travels extract, though.
--
Cheryl
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Donna Richoux
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:42 pm
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
It's not said in modern English. It must be some expression from the
18th century, perhaps meaning "unavailable," perhaps meaning "not
feeling well." It could be in the OED.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Lars Eighner
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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In our last episode,
<1130343682.918136.216680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Xah Lee
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | can ?out of order? be used on a person?
|
"Out of order" can indeed be used to describe a person.
In modern times, it is most likely to be used to describe
a person who is misbehaving in court or at a meeting - or someone
who is doing something that is perfect proper except that
it is done at the wrong time (which is close to the literal
meaning of "out of order"). It might also be used to describe
a child who is being unruly or anyone who is slightly indisposed
by illness (or drunk, etc.). This latter might, or might not,
be considered slightly humorous.
| Quote: | it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
|
I suppose you are aware that Gulliver's Travels is a satire.
Unusual, humorous, ironic, or even shocking language is to be
expected. I cannot tell you whether this would have been a
very unusual expression in Swift's time. To the modern eye,
it obviously means she was unavailable, possibly because she
was physically indisposed (slightly ill), possibly because she
was in a bad mood, or possibly because her presence was not
called for according to the occasion (again near the literal
meaning of "out of order").
| Quote: | http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
|
To summarize:
Out of order:
1. At an inappropriate time (literal meaning): speaking out of
turn, either accidentally or on purpose; not according to plan
or not according to the agenda; untimely.
2. misbehaving, unruly, as for example, by speaking out of turn
on purpose, behaving in a manner inappropriate for the occasion,
rude, insubordinate.
3. (possibly humorous or euphemistic) indisposed by slight
physical illness, in a bad mood, drunk or confused.
Words which are similar in one or more senses: disordered,
out of sorts, misplaced, impertinent, out of place.
It seems to me likely that the sense of "out of repair,"
"not operating properly" as applied to machines and devices
is derived from senses originally applied to human beings.
--
Lars Eighner eighner@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
Ideally a book would have no order to it, and the reader would have to
discover his own. --Raoul Vaneigem |
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old schtick, ubiquity=3 w
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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xahlee typed in an earnest fashion:
<< trivial grammar >>
One has noticed that whenever One mention's Alan Hope's unflappable
man-servant "little yellow man," Xahlee turns up like clock-work with
a head-space contortion:
Honestly Xah, One wouldn't dream of depricating the Chinese, who very
shortly will control the globe; I love them and particularly the
Chinese women, who are, generally, super-intelligent and bloody
gorgeous.
Peace, Man
--
Robbie |
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old schtick, ubiquity=3 w
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:52 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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and btw,
i had the correct spelling 'of' deprecating; the dictionary is wrong.
This tardy bitsy word almost always turns up as part of
self-deprecating; I don't like it: it recalls to mind defecation, a
thoroughly shitty word, and I might have misspelt it;
--
Robbie |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Jordan Abel <jmabel@purdue.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | On 2005-10-26, Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English. It must be some expression from the
18th century, perhaps meaning "unavailable," perhaps meaning "not
feeling well." It could be in the OED.
My first thought on the phrase as applied to a person would mean "in
violation of courtroom or parliamentary procedure" if i saw no other
context.
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Well, yeah, but Xah Lee did provide more context. Apparently Gulliver is
in the land of the giants, and a young girl carries him around in a box,
except when she's -- not available?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Steve Pritchard
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:59 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1h5215x.tdj0t210tz4prN%trio@euronet.nl...
| Quote: | Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English.
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Yes it is. In England. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:07 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Steve Pritchard <Steve_Pritchard@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1h5215x.tdj0t210tz4prN%trio@euronet.nl...
Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English.
Yes it is. In England.
|
Oh, good, thank you. With which meaning? Is it like "out of sorts"?
--
Best wishes -- Donna Richoux |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:34 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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"Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote in message
news:1130343682.918136.216680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
can “out of order” be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
1. Out of order nowadays has a variety of meanings e.g.
-- non-sequential;
-- in breach of the rules (e.g. Roberts' Rules of Order);
-- mechanically defective (e.g. inoperative clockwork);
-- and more.
2. The context here is arrangements for Gulliver's socializing
in Brobdingnag (the land of giants) "when Glumdalclitch happened
to be out of order." In the story, Glumdalclitch was the princess who
kept Gulliver like a pet, taken on excursions in a traveling cage 10 feet
square, just small enough for her to carry on her lap in a coach,
when she took him out to see the land and meet people. Once
a month she menstruated i.e. was out of order and withdrew
temporarily from society, so that Gulliver needed other social
arrangements while she was out of order.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:41 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English. It must be some expression from the
18th century, perhaps meaning "unavailable," perhaps meaning "not
feeling well." It could be in the OED.
|
A very common expression in the UK, Donna. And it is in the OED:
c. out of order: in breach of the prescribed or customary mode of
proceeding of a deliberative or legislative body; (also in extended use,
now esp. of a person's behaviour) unacceptable, inappropriate, uncalled for.
1778 Addr. to Lords of Admiralty 38 Sir Joseph..was therefore perfectly
in order when he stated his grounds for suspecting that the Board..had
instigated the complaint..; and Lord Mulgrave quite out of order, when
he desired Sir Joseph to produce proofs. 1819 W. S. ROSE Court & Parl.
Beasts II. 21 His brutal fury gave the Dog the day: Whose satire on
indecency might border; But none could say that he was out of order. He,
as one unconcern'd, resum'd the oration. 1869 Proc. Royal Geogr. Soc. 13
253 The President ruled that the step now taken was out of order, and
calculated to lead to a general discussion interrupting the business of
the General Meeting. 1899 Dict. National Biogr. s.v. Watson, Sir Brook,
He ruled this [resolution] out of order, and closed a heated discussion
by having the mace taken up. 1935 Jrnl. Higher Educ. 6 8/1 A personnel
audit of the faculty would not be out of order. 1975 M. BRADBURY Hist.
Man ix. 156 The resolution and the preceding one are both ruled out of
order from the chair, on the ground that neither refers to any item on
the agenda of the meeting. 1988 J. BRADY Stone of Heart (1990) 190 I'm a
bit out of order insisting on you going along. 2000 H. SIMPSON Hey Yeah
Right get a Life (2001) 56 She was getting paid to babysit, not to do
stuff like that. That would have been right out of order.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, that Simpson at the end is a Helen Simpson, not Homer.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:50 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Laura F. Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English. It must be some expression from the
18th century, perhaps meaning "unavailable," perhaps meaning "not
feeling well." It could be in the OED.
A very common expression in the UK, Donna. And it is in the OED:
c. out of order: in breach of the prescribed or customary mode of
proceeding of a deliberative or legislative body; (also in extended use,
now esp. of a person's behaviour) unacceptable, inappropriate, uncalled for.
1778 Addr. to Lords of Admiralty 38 Sir Joseph..was therefore perfectly
in order when he stated his grounds for suspecting that the Board..had
instigated the complaint..; and Lord Mulgrave quite out of order, when
he desired Sir Joseph to produce proofs. 1819 W. S. ROSE Court & Parl.
Beasts II. 21 His brutal fury gave the Dog the day: Whose satire on
indecency might border; But none could say that he was out of order. He,
as one unconcern'd, resum'd the oration. 1869 Proc. Royal Geogr. Soc. 13
253 The President ruled that the step now taken was out of order, and
calculated to lead to a general discussion interrupting the business of
the General Meeting. 1899 Dict. National Biogr. s.v. Watson, Sir Brook,
He ruled this [resolution] out of order, and closed a heated discussion
by having the mace taken up. 1935 Jrnl. Higher Educ. 6 8/1 A personnel
audit of the faculty would not be out of order. 1975 M. BRADBURY Hist.
Man ix. 156 The resolution and the preceding one are both ruled out of
order from the chair, on the ground that neither refers to any item on
the agenda of the meeting. 1988 J. BRADY Stone of Heart (1990) 190 I'm a
bit out of order insisting on you going along. 2000 H. SIMPSON Hey Yeah
Right get a Life (2001) 56 She was getting paid to babysit, not to do
stuff like that. That would have been right out of order.
|
But, but, but... How can that be the meaning in the passage that Xah Lee
gave us? In the US, we, like you, have this "Robert's Rules of Order"
sense of "being out of line" -- we also have the sense of a machine
being broken, too -- but I don't see either of those fitting the
Gulliver's Travels passage. I don't get it.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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ing
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:51 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Steve Pritchard <Steve_Pritchard@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1h5215x.tdj0t210tz4prN%trio@euronet.nl...
Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English.
Yes it is. In England.
Oh, good, thank you. With which meaning? Is it like "out of sorts"?
|
It's used in North America too.
Usually spoken in a courtroom or a formal meeting
setting, by a judge/magistrate/whatever or person
in charge of the meeting, to someone who speaks
too aggressively/angrily or out of turn.
There was a scene in a movie (can't remember which
one) in which Al Pacino (?), who played a lawyer,
was told by the judge that he was out of order ...
the Pacino character responded "out of order?! OUR
OF ORDER!? this whole courtroom is out of order,
judge!"
Nobody's EVER used the phrase at me, not anywhere.
<snerk>
ing |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:14 am
Post subject: Re: she's out of order! |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Laura F. Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
can "out of order" be used on a person?
it is so used in Gulliver's Travels
http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt2ch04.html
a quick lookup in American Heritage Dict didn't find me the phrase.
It's not said in modern English. It must be some expression from the
18th century, perhaps meaning "unavailable," perhaps meaning "not
feeling well." It could be in the OED.
A very common expression in the UK, Donna. And it is in the OED:
c. out of order: in breach of the prescribed or customary mode of
proceeding of a deliberative or legislative body; (also in extended use,
now esp. of a person's behaviour) unacceptable, inappropriate, uncalled for.
1778 Addr. to Lords of Admiralty 38 Sir Joseph..was therefore perfectly
in order when he stated his grounds for suspecting that the Board..had
instigated the complaint..; and Lord Mulgrave quite out of order, when
he desired Sir Joseph to produce proofs. 1819 W. S. ROSE Court & Parl.
Beasts II. 21 His brutal fury gave the Dog the day: Whose satire on
indecency might border; But none could say that he was out of order. He,
as one unconcern'd, resum'd the oration. 1869 Proc. Royal Geogr. Soc. 13
253 The President ruled that the step now taken was out of order, and
calculated to lead to a general discussion interrupting the business of
the General Meeting. 1899 Dict. National Biogr. s.v. Watson, Sir Brook,
He ruled this [resolution] out of order, and closed a heated discussion
by having the mace taken up. 1935 Jrnl. Higher Educ. 6 8/1 A personnel
audit of the faculty would not be out of order. 1975 M. BRADBURY Hist.
Man ix. 156 The resolution and the preceding one are both ruled out of
order from the chair, on the ground that neither refers to any item on
the agenda of the meeting. 1988 J. BRADY Stone of Heart (1990) 190 I'm a
bit out of order insisting on you going along. 2000 H. SIMPSON Hey Yeah
Right get a Life (2001) 56 She was getting paid to babysit, not to do
stuff like that. That would have been right out of order.
But, but, but... How can that be the meaning in the passage that Xah Lee
gave us? In the US, we, like you, have this "Robert's Rules of Order"
sense of "being out of line" -- we also have the sense of a machine
being broken, too -- but I don't see either of those fitting the
Gulliver's Travels passage. I don't get it.
|
Sorry, Donna, I hadn't read the thread properly. "Out of order" as
applied to a person in Swift's day clearly meant indisposed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
27. out of order: not in proper sequence, orderly arrangement, or
settled condition; (of a person) not in proper or normal condition of
action, mind, bodily health, etc.; indisposed; (of a mechanical or
electrical device) not working properly or at all. Also attrib. (usu.
with hyphens). See also sense 12b.
In sense indisposed very common in the 18th cent.
1530 J. PALSGRAVE Lesclarcissement 214/1 Disarey, out of order, desaroy.
1546 BP. S. GARDINER Let. 2 Jan. (1933) 211 The worlde is soo far out of
ordre as ther is smal cause to make any fest. 1596 J. DALRYMPLE tr. J.
Leslie Hist. Scotl. (1888) I. 31 Ky, nocht tame..bot lyke wylde hartes,
wandiring out of ordour. 1608 E. TOPSELL Hist. Serpents 250 The patient
is much disquieted, vexed, & too much out of order. 1661 R. BOYLE Some
Consid. Style of Script. (1675) 113 To mend a watch, that's out of
order. 1673 Philos. Trans. Royal Soc. 8 6183 Sometime two, three, or
more of the joynts in a Piece are slipped and out of order or rank. 1722
London Gaz. No. 6098/1 His..Majesty being out of Order, by reason of a
Cold. 1772 JOHNSON Let. 4 Nov. (1992) I. 405 Since I came to Ashbourne I
have been out of order. I was well at Lichfield. 1814 F. BURNEY Wanderer
II. III. xxv. 131 Don't fail to stop at our house in your way back to
your lodgings, Miss Ellis, to look at my harp. I believe it's out of
order. 1861 C. DARWIN Origin of Species (ed. 3) iv. 137 A high
organisation would be..more liable to be put out of order and thus
injured. 1882 Daily Tel. 28 Oct. 2/4 Waters in Sheffield district still
out of order, and angling at a standstill. 1925 S. WEYMAN Queen's Folly
(1927) xix. 189 He fell out of the line [of shooters] on the ground that
his Manton was out of order. 1950 T. WALSH Nightmare in Manhattan III.
82 A phone booth behind the news-stand{em}it has an out-of-order sign on
it. 1990 Computer Buyer's Guide & Handbk. 8 48/2 You might wind up with
correct words but with the text string completely out of order.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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