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Christian Christmann
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:20 pm
Post subject: may and can |
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Hi,
"may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
Thank you for your help.
Chris
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Jordan Abel
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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On 2005-10-26, John Lawler <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | Christian Christmann <plfriko@yahoo.de> writes:
"may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
In some cases yes, in some cases no.
'May' is cognate with Gm 'mögen', and has some of the same meanings,
just as 'can' has some of the meanings of 'können'. But they're not
the same.
For starts, you're referring to the *deontic* sense of 'can' and
'may', the one that has to do with permission and obligation.
All modals have deontic senses, but they also have *epistemic*
senses that deal with abstract possibility and necessity, and here
'can' and 'may' are not substitutable:
This may be the place.
*This can be the place.
|
What's the difference between these two? Degree of probability?
| Quote: | Then there's the interaction with negation. Consider:
You may not go to the ball.
You can't/cannot go to the ball.
These deontic senses are roughly equivalent, both meaning
NECESSARY (NOT p), but the epistemic senses aren't:
She may not enjoy that. = POSSIBLE (NOT p)
She can't enjoy that. = NOT (POSSIBLE p)
|
though there is "can not" which is "possible (not p)" - this just
came up in a "cannot vs can not" discussion yesterday |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:36 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Christian Christmann <plfriko@yahoo.de> writes:
| Quote: | "may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
|
In some cases yes, in some cases no.
'May' is cognate with Gm 'mögen', and has some of the same meanings,
just as 'can' has some of the meanings of 'können'. But they're not
the same.
For starts, you're referring to the *deontic* sense of 'can' and
'may', the one that has to do with permission and obligation.
All modals have deontic senses, but they also have *epistemic*
senses that deal with abstract possibility and necessity, and here
'can' and 'may' are not substitutable:
This may be the place.
*This can be the place.
Then there's the interaction with negation. Consider:
You may not go to the ball.
You can't/cannot go to the ball.
These deontic senses are roughly equivalent, both meaning
NECESSARY (NOT p), but the epistemic senses aren't:
She may not enjoy that. = POSSIBLE (NOT p)
She can't enjoy that. = NOT (POSSIBLE p)
There are lots of reasons why we have so many modals in English.
For some more, see http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/modals.html
-John Lawler
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Nate Branscom
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Christian Christmann wrote:
| Quote: | "may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
|
Not arbitrarily, but it can be interchanged in certain contexts.
"May" is used more politely for permission:
Child: "May I go to the park, Mommy?"
Mother: "Yes, you may go."
(though 'can' may be used instead of may with out confusion)
or in a 'possible situation' kind of context --"I may have hit the guy,
but I'm not sure." or "I may be going to the opera, if I can get a
date."
'Can' can be used to ask for a favor -
"Can you hold the door for me?"---Correct.
"May you hold the door for me?"---Just doesn't work as an inquisitive
sentence.
I hope this helps! I've confused myself writing all of these may's and
can's. Wow!
--Nate |
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Wayne Brown
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:57 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Christian Christmann wrote:
| Quote: | Hi,
"may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
|
Arbitrarily? No, there're often subtle differences. Sometimes "können" works
for a translation, but it would be wrong at other times. In the following
dialog, "können" is correct: "I think the train is late. "You may be right."
(Ich glaube, der Zug hat sich verspätet. Du könntest recht haben). But
"können" cannot translate "may" in this sentence: "I may be an asshole, but
I'm not a stupid asshole." (Ich bin vielleicht ein Arschloch, aber ich bin
kein blödes Arschloch). Much of the usage requires rephrasing in German to
get the sense across: "I'm quitting school." "You can't mean it." (Ich höre
mit der Schule auf. Das ist doch nicht dein Ernst). The subtleties of "may"
and "can" are too numerous to address here, but good bookstores in Germany
have loads of books on English grammar that go into the usage in great
detail with many English examples and German equivalents. Such books have
usually been written in collaboration with British editors and they're a
pleasure to read.
Regards, ----- WB. |
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Jeffrey Turner
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:00 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Jordan Abel wrote:
| Quote: | On 2005-10-26, John Lawler <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote:
Christian Christmann <plfriko@yahoo.de> writes:
"may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
In some cases yes, in some cases no.
'May' is cognate with Gm 'mögen', and has some of the same meanings,
just as 'can' has some of the meanings of 'können'. But they're not
the same.
For starts, you're referring to the *deontic* sense of 'can' and
'may', the one that has to do with permission and obligation.
All modals have deontic senses, but they also have *epistemic*
senses that deal with abstract possibility and necessity, and here
'can' and 'may' are not substitutable:
This may be the place.
*This can be the place.
What's the difference between these two? Degree of probability?
|
To me, the first suggests that the person is unsure, the
second (which is a rarer construction, IME) is about external
conditionality.
This *may* be the place, or it may be somewhere else.
This *can* be the place ... if we get funding.
--Jeff
--
But I venture the challenging statement
that if American democracy ceases to
move forward as a living force, seeking
day and night by peaceful means to
better the lot of our citizens, then
Fascism and Communism, aided, unconsciously
perhaps, by old-line Tory Republicanism,
will grow in strength in our land.
--Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
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Ted Schuerzinger
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:18 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Somebody claiming to be jlawler@umich.edu (John Lawler) wrote in
news:F6I7f.1007$yb2.297@news.itd.umich.edu:
| Quote: | Christian Christmann <plfriko@yahoo.de> writes:
"may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
In some cases yes, in some cases no.
'May' is cognate with Gm 'mögen', and has some of the same meanings,
just as 'can' has some of the meanings of 'können'. But they're not
the same.
|
I'd aruge that 'may' is cognate with 'dürfen', in the sense of 'to be
allowed to'. 'Nicht dürfen' means 'must not', while 'may not' can mean
either 'might not' (possibility) or 'must not' (prohibition)
'Können' has roughly the 'to be able to' sense of 'can', which means that
'nicht können' has the impossibility sense of 'cannot', and not the
prohibition sense.
--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
Oh Marge, anyone can miss Canada, all tucked away down there....
--Homer Simpson |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Ted Schuerzinger wrote:
| Quote: | Somebody claiming to be jlawler@umich.edu (John Lawler) wrote in
news:F6I7f.1007$yb2.297@news.itd.umich.edu:
Christian Christmann <plfriko@yahoo.de> writes:
"may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
In some cases yes, in some cases no.
'May' is cognate with Gm 'mögen', and has some of the same meanings,
just as 'can' has some of the meanings of 'können'. But they're not
the same.
I'd aruge that 'may' is cognate with 'dürfen', in the sense of 'to be
allowed to'. 'Nicht dürfen' means 'must not', while 'may not' can mean
either 'might not' (possibility) or 'must not' (prohibition)
.... |
"Cognate" is an etymological term; it means the words comes from the
same source, not that they has the same meaning.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:47 am
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Christian Christmann wrote:
| Quote: | Hi,
"may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
Thank you for your help.
|
Can "dürfen" be arbitrarily interchanged with "können"? How does "Das
mag sein" come to mean something like "Das kann sein"? At some point,
all these modal verbs were put in a bag an shaken up and the results in
most European languages are a bit strange at times.
--
Rob Bannister |
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designquest10
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:58 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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In terms of English usage, I have always used a simple litmus test:
May --> Is it permissible / acceptable?
May I take a look at these photographs?
Can --> Is it possible / feasible?
Can I use this key to open the door? |
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J. W. Love
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:43 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Christian wrote:
| Quote: | Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
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Yes! However, if you'd asked
[>] May "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
the answer would be "No!" |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:18 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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Ted Schuerzinger <fedya@bestweb.spam> writes:
| Quote: | jlawler@umich.edu (John Lawler) writes
Christian Christmann <plfriko@yahoo.de> writes:
"may" and "can" seem to have a similar meaning, at least for me since
both words can be translated to the German "können".
Can "can" be arbitrarily interchanged with "may"?
In some cases yes, in some cases no.
'May' is cognate with Gm 'mögen', and has some of the same meanings,
just as 'can' has some of the meanings of 'können'. But they're not
the same.
I'd aruge that 'may' is cognate with 'dürfen', in the sense of 'to be
allowed to'. 'Nicht dürfen' means 'must not', while 'may not' can mean
either 'might not' (possibility) or 'must not' (prohibition)
|
"Cognate" is a technical term referring to etymology.
Both "may" and "mögen" come from the same Proto-Germanic
modal verb. Hence they're cognate (Lat 'born together').
Being cognate has nothing to do with meaning, only history.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/wow |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:43 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:18:48 GMT, John Lawler wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | "Cognate" is a technical term referring to etymology.
Both "may" and "mögen" come from the same Proto-Germanic
modal verb. Hence they're cognate (Lat 'born together').
Being cognate has nothing to do with meaning, only history.
|
In Italian a "cognato/a" ([ko'.n.natO], I hope I got this right) is a
brother- or sister-in-law.
Bye, FB
--
"I saw something nasty in the woodshed!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film) |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:29 pm
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:43:25 +0200, FB wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:18:48 GMT, John Lawler wrote:
[...]
"Cognate" is a technical term referring to etymology.
Both "may" and "mögen" come from the same Proto-Germanic
modal verb. Hence they're cognate (Lat 'born together').
Being cognate has nothing to do with meaning, only history.
In Italian a "cognato/a" ([ko'.n.natO], I hope I got this right) is a
brother- or sister-in-law.
|
[kO'.n.natO], provided [.n] is Spanish <ñ>.
Ciao, FB
--
bludiesel, una voce fuori dal coro.
....o un cretino?
(RedWiz su it.arti.cinema) |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:23 am
Post subject: Re: may and can |
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| Quote: | This is kind of an old debate, and the first thing I think of
when I hear it is being back in grade school, hearing some kid ask
"Can I go to the bathroom?", and the teacher said "You mean, MAY I go
to the bathroom...".
The teacher was right.
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The teacher was attempting to teach an antiquated distinction.
| Quote: | The question "Can I?" would mean "Am I technically able to?".
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At one time it would have.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "The three dots '...' here suppress a lot of detail
msb@vex.net | -- maybe I should have used four dots." -- Knuth |
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