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Message |
Jason Clark
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:51 am
Post subject: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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I am a graduate student specializing in gifted education at the University
of Missouri. As part of my practicum this semester, I'm soliciting feedback
to the questions below from educators on the subjects of gifted students and
language learning. Even if your educational role isn't in those areas, if
you have an opinion to share, please do. Many thanks for your
participation.
Jason Clark (jcy68@mizzou.edu)
How does your school identify gifted students?
How does your school handle gifted students (pull out classes,
differentiated instruction, etc.)?
What challenges do you feel exist in teaching gifted students?
What challenges do you feel exist in teaching languages in comparison to
other fields?
What are your views on how to best instruct students gifted in learning
languages?
How do you handle students who are 'bored?'
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izzy
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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| Quote: | How do you handle [language] students who are 'bored?'
|
You may try assigning special projects that are not mission-impossible
but can be intellectually stimulating.
1 - There is a pervasive tendency for the *same* semantically unrelated
concepts to be collected into homonyms across languages. For example,
Hebrew tsadi-lamed-lamed TZ'LiL means both a tone you can hear and (to
dive) deep. In English, the word "sound" has the same meanings. Hebrew
MiSHPaT means a grammatical sentence and the verdict of a court. The
English word "sentence" has the same meanings. Have the student find
similar examples that occur in his native language and the language(s)
he is studying.
2 - Have the student find foreign phrases that became idioms in English
or in his native language. In English, there are two major classes of
idioms:
Type 1 - the transliteration of a foreign word/phrase into common words
like cats, dogs, sacks, bags.
Type 1a - the source phrase is "plain text", not figurative. Example:
German Acht(ung) Grund => an axe to grind. Pay attention/beware +
basis/reason/grounds. Beweggrund means motive. Said if someone has an
ulterior motive.
Type 1b - the source phrase is a metaphor. I think "kick the bucket" is
the transliteration of Semitic 3aGaV B'3a:DeN (make love in Paradise),
where 3 represents the letter aiyin with its ancient G/K-sound, as in
3aZa = Gaza.
Type 2 - the translation of a foreign idiom where transliteration
occurred into that foreign language.
Type 2a - the foreign idiom is a transliteration of (pun on) a phrase
in the *same* foreign language. Example: In biblical Job 19:20, B'3oR
SHiNai (by the skin of my teeth) is a pun on the Hebrew B'QoSHi
(barely, hardly, with difficulty).
Type 2b - the foreign idiom is the transliteration of a phrase from
another foreign language. Example: Count sheep (to go to sleep). Using
@ for aleph, Hebrew S'PoR TSo@N (count sheep) is a pun on the Latin
phrase sopor sond (sleep soundly / deeply). Note English soporific.
3 - If the student is interested in ancient languages, have the student
look for body part maps. Swadesh lists can help one do this. To see
examples of these maps, join the BPMaps discussion group and examine
the databases at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/
Now, some nostalgia:
My Algebra teacher noticed that I was doing my homework instead of
paying attention to her explanations to the class. She solved this
problem by moving my desk to a corner of the room, placing an empty
desk next to it, and telling the class that any student who wanted
individual help could go sit next to me and get it.
My Geometry teacher lost her teenage son in a tragic boating accident
during the summer before I became her student. She emotionally adopted
me. While other students were working on a class assignment, she would
call me to her desk and talk about her son. Sometimes she would
describe elegant geometric proofs that were not being taught to the
class.
My 11th grade English teacher gave me the task of grading English
vocabulary tests and other tests that could be easily graded. I was
allowed to "take" the same tests after grading those taken by the
class. We both quickly realized that my taking the tests was just a
waste of time, so I was given a virtual A on all of the tests that I
graded.
My Chemistry teacher was a very large woman named Dorothy T. We called
her "Big Dot". For lunch, she would sometimes heat up spaghetti and
meatballs in a beaker over a Bunsen burner. At the end of each
semester, Big Dot would announce each student's grade in class. One
semester in the Spring she got to my name and said "Cohen...B". The
class went wild, shouting in unison, "Cohen got a B." Big Dot looked up
and said "Irving knows as much chemistry as anyone in this room. I'm
changing that to an A right now." In the silence that ensued, she began
reading out the rest of the grades. It was Dorothy T who sent me to a
2-week Science Camp during the summer before my senior year.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
BPMaps moderator |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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izzy wrote:
| Quote: | How do you handle [language] students who are 'bored?'
You may try assigning special projects that are not mission-impossible
but can be intellectually stimulating.
1 - There is a pervasive tendency for the *same* semantically
unrelated concepts to be collected into homonyms across languages.
For example, Hebrew tsadi-lamed-lamed TZ'LiL means both a tone you
can hear and (to dive) deep. In English, the word "sound" has the
same meanings. Hebrew MiSHPaT means a grammatical sentence and the
verdict of a court. The English word "sentence" has the same
meanings. Have the student find similar examples that occur in his
native language and the language(s) he is studying.
2 - Have the student find foreign phrases that became idioms in
English or in his native language. In English, there are two major
classes of idioms:
Type 1 - the transliteration of a foreign word/phrase into common
words like cats, dogs, sacks, bags.
Type 1a - the source phrase is "plain text", not figurative. Example:
German Acht(ung) Grund => an axe to grind. Pay attention/beware +
basis/reason/grounds. Beweggrund means motive. Said if someone has an
ulterior motive.
Type 1b - the source phrase is a metaphor. I think "kick the bucket"
is the transliteration of Semitic 3aGaV B'3a:DeN (make love in
Paradise), where 3 represents the letter aiyin with its ancient
G/K-sound, as in 3aZa = Gaza.
Type 2 - the translation of a foreign idiom where transliteration
occurred into that foreign language.
Type 2a - the foreign idiom is a transliteration of (pun on) a phrase
in the *same* foreign language. Example: In biblical Job 19:20, B'3oR
SHiNai (by the skin of my teeth) is a pun on the Hebrew B'QoSHi
(barely, hardly, with difficulty).
Type 2b - the foreign idiom is the transliteration of a phrase from
another foreign language. Example: Count sheep (to go to sleep). Using
@ for aleph, Hebrew S'PoR TSo@N (count sheep) is a pun on the Latin
phrase sopor sond (sleep soundly / deeply). Note English soporific.
3 - If the student is interested in ancient languages, have the
student look for body part maps. Swadesh lists can help one do this.
To see examples of these maps, join the BPMaps discussion group and
examine the databases at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/
Now, some nostalgia:
My Algebra teacher noticed that I was doing my homework instead of
paying attention to her explanations to the class. She solved this
problem by moving my desk to a corner of the room, placing an empty
desk next to it, and telling the class that any student who wanted
individual help could go sit next to me and get it.
My Geometry teacher lost her teenage son in a tragic boating accident
during the summer before I became her student. She emotionally adopted
me. While other students were working on a class assignment, she would
call me to her desk and talk about her son. Sometimes she would
describe elegant geometric proofs that were not being taught to the
class.
My 11th grade English teacher gave me the task of grading English
vocabulary tests and other tests that could be easily graded. I was
allowed to "take" the same tests after grading those taken by the
class. We both quickly realized that my taking the tests was just a
waste of time, so I was given a virtual A on all of the tests that I
graded.
My Chemistry teacher was a very large woman named Dorothy T. We called
her "Big Dot". For lunch, she would sometimes heat up spaghetti and
meatballs in a beaker over a Bunsen burner. At the end of each
semester, Big Dot would announce each student's grade in class. One
semester in the Spring she got to my name and said "Cohen...B". The
class went wild, shouting in unison, "Cohen got a B." Big Dot looked
up and said "Irving knows as much chemistry as anyone in this room.
I'm changing that to an A right now." In the silence that ensued, she
began reading out the rest of the grades. It was Dorothy T who sent
me to a 2-week Science Camp during the summer before my senior year.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
BPMaps moderator
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--
John Briggs
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:14 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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izzy wrote:
| Quote: | How do you handle [language] students who are 'bored?'
You may try assigning special projects that are not mission-impossible
but can be intellectually stimulating.
1 - There is a pervasive tendency for the *same* semantically
unrelated concepts to be collected into homonyms across languages.
For example, Hebrew tsadi-lamed-lamed TZ'LiL means both a tone you
can hear and (to dive) deep. In English, the word "sound" has the
same meanings. Hebrew MiSHPaT means a grammatical sentence and the
verdict of a court. The English word "sentence" has the same
meanings. Have the student find similar examples that occur in his
native language and the language(s) he is studying.
2 - Have the student find foreign phrases that became idioms in
English or in his native language. In English, there are two major
classes of idioms:
Type 1 - the transliteration of a foreign word/phrase into common
words like cats, dogs, sacks, bags.
|
I'm not convinced you are employing "transliteration" correctly.
| Quote: | Type 1a - the source phrase is "plain text", not figurative. Example:
German Acht(ung) Grund => an axe to grind. Pay attention/beware +
basis/reason/grounds. Beweggrund means motive. Said if someone has an
ulterior motive.
|
I don't believe that.
| Quote: | Type 1b - the source phrase is a metaphor. I think "kick the bucket"
is the transliteration of Semitic 3aGaV B'3a:DeN (make love in
Paradise), where 3 represents the letter aiyin with its ancient
G/K-sound, as in 3aZa = Gaza.
|
That can't possibly be the origin of the expression.
| Quote: | Type 2 - the translation of a foreign idiom where transliteration
occurred into that foreign language.
Type 2a - the foreign idiom is a transliteration of (pun on) a phrase
in the *same* foreign language. Example: In biblical Job 19:20, B'3oR
SHiNai (by the skin of my teeth) is a pun on the Hebrew B'QoSHi
(barely, hardly, with difficulty).
|
Maybe, but the original context seems awfully literal - Jerome goes for "et
derelicta sunt tantummodo labia circa dentes meos."
| Quote: | Type 2b - the foreign idiom is the transliteration of a phrase from
another foreign language. Example: Count sheep (to go to sleep). Using
@ for aleph, Hebrew S'PoR TSo@N (count sheep) is a pun on the Latin
phrase sopor sond (sleep soundly / deeply). Note English soporific.
|
If you are saying what I think you are saying, that can't possibly be the
origin of the phrase.
--
John Briggs |
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izzy
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:49 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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| Quote: | I don't believe that.
That can't possibly be the origin of the expression.
Maybe, but ...
... that can't possibly be the origin of the phrase.
|
Why? or why not?
Type 1 idioms (as described in my prior email) are simply the
[English]-ification of foreign phrases. The phrase retains its original
meaning, nearly retains its original sound, but becomes re-cast (and
later re-spelled) as common [English] words.
Type 2 idioms are simply the literal translation into [English] of
idioms that already exist in another language.
You can probably substitute most other target-languages for [English]
in these two statements.
Even the etymology of the word "idiom" supports this mechanism of
taking a foreign expression and making it "one's own".
It's "as easy/simply as pie". This phrase is probably a translation of
the much more alliterative Aramaic P'SHooT D' PaSHTiDa. P'SHooT =
simple. PaSHTiDa = pie.
Dosh kham (Hebrew for "warm regards"),
Israel "izzy" Cohen |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:42 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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izzy wrote:
| Quote: | I don't believe that.
That can't possibly be the origin of the expression.
Maybe, but ...
... that can't possibly be the origin of the phrase.
Why? or why not?
|
Because they are inherently improbable.
| Quote: | Type 1 idioms (as described in my prior email) are simply the
[English]-ification of foreign phrases. The phrase retains its
original meaning, nearly retains its original sound, but becomes
re-cast (and later re-spelled) as common [English] words.
|
Yes, yes. But you do have to put forward some evidence that this might have
happened. Not to mention 'when' and 'how'.
| Quote: | Type 2 idioms are simply the literal translation into [English] of
idioms that already exist in another language.
|
But you have to provide evidence that that might have happened.
| Quote: | You can probably substitute most other target-languages for [English]
in these two statements.
|
Precisely how many languages were targetted by Hebrew?
| Quote: | Even the etymology of the word "idiom" supports this mechanism of
taking a foreign expression and making it "one's own".
|
And taking words from Late Latin that have Greek roots is a standard
mechanism.
| Quote: | It's "as easy/simply as pie". This phrase is probably a translation of
the much more alliterative Aramaic P'SHooT D' PaSHTiDa. P'SHooT =
simple. PaSHTiDa = pie.
|
Just out of interest, how many English expressions have come from Aramaic?
--
John Briggs |
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izzy
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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| Quote: | Type 1 idioms ... are simply the [English]-ification
[via transliteration] of foreign phrases. ...
Yes, yes. But you do have to put forward some evidence that this
might have happened. Not to mention 'when' and 'how'.
Type 2 idioms are simply the literal translation into [English] of
idioms that already exist in another language.
But you have to provide evidence that that might have happened.
|
One should not insist that the etymology of an idiom be proven
more precisely or accurately than the etymology of words and
phrases that are not idioms.
For most of the lexicon, the when and how cannot be precisely
known. Dictionary etymologies, including those in the OED,
range from "educated guesses" to near certainty. At the near
certainty end of the spectrum I would place the names of recently
discovered elements. However, see "getting one's bearings =>
Gallium < Lecoq or Gallia (France) ? " at this URL:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ABOUT-WORDS/2003-02/1045505446
Nonetheless, the phonetic aspect of tracing idioms to their
source is sometimes easier than tracing other words to
their source because idioms tend to have more syllables.
| Quote: | And taking words from Late Latin that have Greek roots is a
standard mechanism.
|
Yes. I would call that a standard pattern or customary path.
This type of pattern also occurs in idioms. The numbers are
not as large because the ratio of idioms to regular words is
very small. But here are some examples:
The "beans" in "spill the beans" and "(he doesn't know) beans
about ..." both seem cognate with Hebrew BiNaH = meaning,
understanding, wisdom. To "spill" is to tell, as in Yiddish spiel,
from Hebrew samekh-peh-resh SaPeR = to tell.
The "dogs" in "raining cats and dogs" and "(his life) went to the
dogs" both seem cognate with Hebrew shin-kuf-aiyin SH'Ki3a
= "to descend" at a time when the shin had a dental sound and
the 3 = aiyin had a G-sound as in 3aZa = Gaza. Compare OE
docga = dog.
The "bag" in "let the cat out of the bag" and "(he was) left holding
the bag" both seem cognate with Hebrew bet-gimel-dalet BaGaD
= to betray. To let the cat out of the bag is to betray the truth, or
betray (someone) by telling the truth. An Aramaic term for truth is
KiSHoT. Giving the shin its ancient dental sound produces KiToT
or "cat out". The poor soul who was left holding the bag was the
only one betrayed. Everyone else got away.
| Quote: | Precisely how many languages were targetted by Hebrew?
Just out of interest, how many English expressions have come
from Aramaic?
|
I don't think any language was a "target" of Hebrew, but many
languages have been affected by it because the Old Testament
was written mostly in Hebrew and the bible has been translated
into more languages than any other book. Aramaic has had a
large influence on other languages because it was a lingua franca
for about 600 years. By comparison, English has been a lingua
franca for less than 300 years. But, English has already had a
tremendous impact on Israeli Hebrew. Russian is now having
some impact on Hebrew pronunciation.
To see an overview of when and where other languages have
been affected by Semitic, go to:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ABOUT-WORDS/2002-08/1029997811
To see how Western Semitic (Phoenician) affected the names of
countries throughout Asia minor and north Africa, go to:
http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/sci.archaeology/msg06557.html
Best regards,
Israel "izzy" Cohen |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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izzy wrote:
| Quote: | Type 1 idioms ... are simply the [English]-ification
[via transliteration] of foreign phrases. ...
Yes, yes. But you do have to put forward some evidence that this
might have happened. Not to mention 'when' and 'how'.
Type 2 idioms are simply the literal translation into [English] of
idioms that already exist in another language.
But you have to provide evidence that that might have happened.
One should not insist that the etymology of an idiom be proven
more precisely or accurately than the etymology of words and
phrases that are not idioms.
|
I try to be precise or accurate in my use of words: I wrote "might have
happened". This is what you have not demonstrated.
| Quote: | For most of the lexicon, the when and how cannot be precisely
known. Dictionary etymologies, including those in the OED,
range from "educated guesses" to near certainty. At the near
certainty end of the spectrum I would place the names of recently
discovered elements. However, see "getting one's bearings =
Gallium < Lecoq or Gallia (France) ? " at this URL:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ABOUT-WORDS/2003-02/1045505446
|
I think we can safely say that both meanings were in Lecoq's mind - there is
no way of determining which was uppermost. Wasn't the cockerel used as a
symbol by the Third Republic? I don't believe your "bearings" story :-)
| Quote: | Nonetheless, the phonetic aspect of tracing idioms to their
source is sometimes easier than tracing other words to
their source because idioms tend to have more syllables.
|
I have a feeling that this bizarre statement may come back to haunt you :-)
| Quote: | And taking words from Late Latin that have Greek roots is a
standard mechanism.
Yes. I would call that a standard pattern or customary path.
This type of pattern also occurs in idioms. The numbers are
not as large because the ratio of idioms to regular words is
very small. But here are some examples:
The "beans" in "spill the beans" and "(he doesn't know) beans
about ..." both seem cognate with Hebrew BiNaH = meaning,
understanding, wisdom. To "spill" is to tell, as in Yiddish spiel,
from Hebrew samekh-peh-resh SaPeR = to tell.
|
I very much doubt that "spiel" comes from Hebrew. Do remember what Yiddish
actually is.
| Quote: | The "dogs" in "raining cats and dogs" and "(his life) went to the
dogs" both seem cognate with Hebrew shin-kuf-aiyin SH'Ki3a
= "to descend" at a time when the shin had a dental sound and
the 3 = aiyin had a G-sound as in 3aZa = Gaza. Compare OE
docga = dog.
The "bag" in "let the cat out of the bag" and "(he was) left holding
the bag" both seem cognate with Hebrew bet-gimel-dalet BaGaD
= to betray. To let the cat out of the bag is to betray the truth, or
betray (someone) by telling the truth. An Aramaic term for truth is
KiSHoT. Giving the shin its ancient dental sound produces KiToT
or "cat out". The poor soul who was left holding the bag was the
only one betrayed. Everyone else got away.
|
Again, you have to demonstrate that the expressions actually originated in a
culture with a knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic (or even Yiddish).
| Quote: | Precisely how many languages were targetted by Hebrew?
Just out of interest, how many English expressions have come
from Aramaic?
I don't think any language was a "target" of Hebrew, but many
languages have been affected by it because the Old Testament
was written mostly in Hebrew and the bible has been translated
into more languages than any other book.
|
"Mostly in Hebrew"? You have presumably heard about the book that described
George Washington as "one of the first presidents of the United States"?
Biblical translators with a knowledge of Hebrew have always been a small
elite. One would have to demonstrate words escaping from them into the
English language - presumably in the 17th century or thereabouts. That sort
of thing did happen, of course - mostly from Greek. For example, "nous" and
"jot" (iota). "Crony" is learned slang from the universities, as is "chum".
But give me some actual Hebrew examples.
| Quote: | Aramaic has had a
large influence on other languages because it was a lingua franca
for about 600 years.
|
Which 600 years? Which languages?
| Quote: | By comparison, English has been a lingua
franca for less than 300 years. But, English has already had a
tremendous impact on Israeli Hebrew. Russian is now having
some impact on Hebrew pronunciation.
To see an overview of when and where other languages have
been affected by Semitic, go to:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ABOUT-WORDS/2002-08/1029997811
|
That just demonstrates that other people think you are a crank.
I don't think you'll get many takers for your "Body Maps".
--
John Briggs |
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izzy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
|
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| Quote: | One should not insist that the etymology of an idiom be proven
more precisely or accurately than the etymology of words and
phrases that are not idioms.
I try to be precise or accurate in my use of words: I wrote "might
have happened". This is what you have not demonstrated.
|
OK. Let's look at an example of a Latin phrase that might have become
an English idiom, but we know that it did not: "e pluribus unum" which
means "out of many, one".
If it had become an idiom it might have been spelled "a flower bush you
name" but it would have retained its original meaning. It would also
have acquired a folk-etymology, perhaps "a flower-bush could have many
names, but we typically give it only one."
| Quote: | I think we can safely say that both meanings [the Latin word for rooster
and the former name for France] were in Lecoq's mind - there is no way
of determining which was uppermost.
|
The OED finally accepted Lecoq's protestations (after his death) and
revised its etymology for the element Gallium.
| Quote: | Wasn't the cockerel used as a symbol by the Third Republic?
|
I had to Google this one. The answer is "almost". See:
http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/article.php3?id_article=362
http://www.languedoc-france.info/06141212_cockerel.htm
| Quote: | I don't believe your "bearings" story 
|
I did a Google search for ["getting your bearings" + email] and found
this 58-page website:
http://www.sciencenorth.on.ca/schools/teacherresources/edu_guides/IMAX/bears.pdf
| Quote: | ... If you look at the two stars forming the beginning of the "bowl" and follow along the line they make, you will see the North Star, Polaris. The star forms part of the tail of the Lesser Bear, and was always used by sailors as a guide to finding north. In fact, the phrase, "getting your bearings" comes from the practice of using the Great Bear to find the North Star. ...
... idioms tend to have more syllables [than ordinary words].
I have a feeling that this bizarre statement may come back to haunt you
Why? |
| Quote: | ... To "spill" is to tell, as in Yiddish spiel,
from Hebrew samekh-peh-resh SaPeR = to tell.
I very much doubt that "spiel" comes from Hebrew.
Do remember what Yiddish actually is.
|
The Germanic Spiel means "a play", as in a Purim Spiel. This meaning is
also found in Yiddish. But the "spiel" in "spill the beans" means to
tell/relate/recount as in the long spiel you might get from a used-car
salesman. This spiel is semantically related to Hebrew samekh-peh-resh
= to tell. Play it again, Sam.
| Quote: | Again, you have to demonstrate that the expressions actually originated in a
culture with a knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic (or even Yiddish).
|
Jews are infamous for Wandering. As for Aramaic, any culture that
engaged in world trade from 800 BC to 300 BC had significant contacts
with Aramaic
| Quote: | ... the Old Testament was written mostly in Hebrew ...
"Mostly in Hebrew"? You have presumably heard about the book that described
George Washington as "one of the first presidents of the United States"?
|
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_oldt.htm
| Quote: | Hebrew Scriptures: The text was originally written in Hebrew, except for a few verses which were composed in Aramaic (Ezra 4:8 to 6:18; Ezra 7:12-26; Jeremiah 10:11; Daniel 2:4b to 7:2 . ... The books of the Apocrypha appear to have been originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic. ...
Biblical translators with a knowledge of Hebrew have always been a small elite.
One would have to demonstrate words escaping from them into the English
language. But give me some actual Hebrew examples.
|
English expressions derived from Hebrew did not come directly from the
very few people engaged in translation. They came mostly from
translated Bibles and the many clerics who quoted them. For a long list
of English translations of the bible (with dates), see
http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html
| Quote: | But give me some actual Hebrew examples.
|
"Count sheep (to go to sleep)" probably originated in a monastery or
university "Take hair of the dog that bit you" as a hangover remedy is
probably another. Here the Latin phrase is Saccharomyces cervisiae, a
yeast that converts sugar to alcohol. The cure is spent Brewer's yeast
(Marmite or Vegamite in your supermarket). The Hebrew pun is Sa3aR
MiNSHaKH KeLeV = hair bite dog. Compare the Greek 3-headed dog
CeRBerus. See:
http://www.musicalenglishlessons.org/contributors/izzycohen.htm
| Quote: | Aramaic has had a large influence on other languages because it was a
lingua franca for about 600 years.
Which 600 years? Which languages?
|
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/language.html
| Quote: | [Aramaic] became the language of Semitic peoples throughout the ancient Near East from before 1000 BC ... By the 8th century B.C. it was the major language from Egypt to Asia Minor to Pakistan. It was the language of the great Semitic empires of Assyria, Syria, Chaldean, and Babylon and was used throughout Achaemenid Persia. ...
Aramaic was the dominate language throughout the Middle East and |
enjoyed general use until the spread of Greek after Alexander's
conquest of the Achaemenid empire in 331 B.C. ... Aramaic's use
remained among the Semitic peoples until it was superseded by Arabic
with the Arab conquest in the 7th Century AD. <<
Would you include yourself in that group of "other people" :-?
The BPMaps discussion group currently has about 140 members. It is a
very quiet group that currently averages about 1 message per month. You
and all of the readers are cordially invited to join. When you do, be
sure to examine the databases.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
BPMaps moderator
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/ |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:25 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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At 09:17:22 on Mon, 21 Nov 2005, izzy <cohen.izzy@gmail.com> wrote in
<1132593442.319866.177700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | OK. Let's look at an example of a Latin phrase that might have become
an English idiom, but we know that it did not: "e pluribus unum" which
means "out of many, one".
If it had become an idiom it might have been spelled "a flower bush you
name" but it would have retained its original meaning. It would also
have acquired a folk-etymology, perhaps "a flower-bush could have many
names, but we typically give it only one."
|
You would be on firmer ground if you were to cite pub names like "The
Elephant and Castle" and "The Case is Altered", both of which came from
British soldiers in the Peninsular War trying to make sense of the names
of the Spanish inns they enjoyed.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:20 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
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|
izzy wrote:
| Quote: | One should not insist that the etymology of an idiom be proven
more precisely or accurately than the etymology of words and
phrases that are not idioms.
I try to be precise or accurate in my use of words: I wrote "might
have happened". This is what you have not demonstrated.
OK. Let's look at an example of a Latin phrase that might have become
an English idiom, but we know that it did not: "e pluribus unum" which
means "out of many, one".
If it had become an idiom it might have been spelled "a flower bush
you name" but it would have retained its original meaning. It would
also have acquired a folk-etymology, perhaps "a flower-bush could
have many names, but we typically give it only one."
|
You know, this would have been a damned sight more convincing if you had
used a real example rather than a fictitious one.
| Quote: | I think we can safely say that both meanings [the Latin word for rooster
and the former name for France] were in Lecoq's mind - there is no way of
determining which was uppermost.
The OED finally accepted Lecoq's protestations (after his death) and
revised its etymology for the element Gallium.
|
That doesn't mean they were right. Remind me, which one of us is it that
doesn't accept dictionary etymologies?
"it virtually became an official symbol of the Third Republic". Note the
use on stamps and coins. It makes an unfortunate reference to "word war I",
with which I suspect you might be involved :-)
Yes, it's all about bears! Do you think it is an unbiased source?
| Quote: | ... If you look at the two stars forming the beginning of the
"bowl" and follow along the line they make, you will see the North
Star, Polaris. The star forms part of the tail of the Lesser Bear,
and was always used by sailors as a guide to finding north. In
fact, the phrase, "getting your bearings" comes from the practice
of using the Great Bear to find the North Star. ...
... idioms tend to have more syllables [than ordinary words].
I have a feeling that this bizarre statement may come back to haunt
you :-)
Why?
|
Let's wait and see :-)
| Quote: | ... To "spill" is to tell, as in Yiddish spiel,
from Hebrew samekh-peh-resh SaPeR = to tell.
I very much doubt that "spiel" comes from Hebrew.
Do remember what Yiddish actually is.
The Germanic Spiel means "a play", as in a Purim Spiel. This meaning
is also found in Yiddish. But the "spiel" in "spill the beans" means
to tell/relate/recount as in the long spiel you might get from a
used-car salesman. This spiel is semantically related to Hebrew
samekh-peh-resh = to tell. Play it again, Sam.
|
Rather than just stating "spiel is semantically related to Hebrew", how
about showing us some evidence?
| Quote: | Again, you have to demonstrate that the expressions actually
originated in a culture with a knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic (or
even Yiddish).
Jews are infamous for Wandering. As for Aramaic, any culture that
engaged in world trade from 800 BC to 300 BC had significant contacts
with Aramaic
... the Old Testament was written mostly in Hebrew ...
"Mostly in Hebrew"? You have presumably heard about the book that
described George Washington as "one of the first presidents of the
United States"?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_oldt.htm
Hebrew Scriptures: The text was originally written in Hebrew,
except for a few verses which were composed in Aramaic (Ezra 4:8 to
6:18; Ezra 7:12-26; Jeremiah 10:11; Daniel 2:4b to 7:2. ... The
books of the Apocrypha appear to have been originally written in
Hebrew and Aramaic. ...
Biblical translators with a knowledge of Hebrew have always been a
small elite. One would have to demonstrate words escaping from them
into the English language. But give me some actual Hebrew examples.
English expressions derived from Hebrew did not come directly from the
very few people engaged in translation. They came mostly from
translated Bibles and the many clerics who quoted them. For a long
list of English translations of the bible (with dates), see
http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html
|
An English expression which is a literal translation from the Hebrew is not
an "expression derived from Hebrew". In any case, "skin of the teeth"
(which was where we came in) is either a mistranslation or (more likely) a
corruption in the Hebrew text (blame the Masoretes).
| Quote: | But give me some actual Hebrew examples.
"Count sheep (to go to sleep)" probably originated in a monastery or
university "Take hair of the dog that bit you" as a hangover remedy is
probably another.
|
Probably? Can't you be a bit more precise? What sort of university or
monastery?
| Quote: | Here the Latin phrase is Saccharomyces cervisiae, a
yeast that converts sugar to alcohol. The cure is spent Brewer's yeast
(Marmite or Vegamite in your supermarket). The Hebrew pun is Sa3aR
MiNSHaKH KeLeV = hair bite dog. Compare the Greek 3-headed dog
CeRBerus. See:
http://www.musicalenglishlessons.org/contributors/izzycohen.htm
|
At which date is any of this supposed to have happened? Bearing in mind the
title of this thread, does peddling this nonsense come from a lifetime of
dealing with people less clever than you?
| Quote: | Aramaic has had a large influence on other languages because it was
a lingua franca for about 600 years.
Which 600 years? Which languages?
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/language.html
[Aramaic] became the language of Semitic peoples throughout the
ancient Near East from before 1000 BC ... By the 8th century B.C.
it was the major language from Egypt to Asia Minor to Pakistan. It
was the language of the great Semitic empires of Assyria, Syria,
Chaldean, and Babylon and was used throughout Achaemenid Persia.
...
Aramaic was the dominate language throughout the Middle East and
enjoyed general use until the spread of Greek after Alexander's
conquest of the Achaemenid empire in 331 B.C. ... Aramaic's use
remained among the Semitic peoples until it was superseded by Arabic
with the Arab conquest in the 7th Century AD.
To see ... when and where other languages have been affected by
Semitic, go to:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ABOUT-WORDS/2002-08/1029997811
That just demonstrates that other people think you are a crank.
Would you include yourself in that group of "other people" 
|
Just play the odds :-)
| Quote: | To see how Western Semitic (Phoenician) affected the names of
countries throughout Asia minor and north Africa, go to:
http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/sci.archaeology/msg06557.html
I don't think you'll get many takers for your "Body [Part] Maps".
The BPMaps discussion group currently has about 140 members. It is a
very quiet group that currently averages about 1 message per month.
You and all of the readers are cordially invited to join. When you
do, be sure to examine the databases.
|
Actually, there's more to the "Body Part Maps" than your other ideas, but as
usual you are pushing it too far.
--
John Briggs |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:24 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
|
|
Molly Mockford wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:17:22 on Mon, 21 Nov 2005, izzy <cohen.izzy@gmail.com> wrote in
1132593442.319866.177700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
OK. Let's look at an example of a Latin phrase that might have become
an English idiom, but we know that it did not: "e pluribus unum"
which means "out of many, one".
If it had become an idiom it might have been spelled "a flower bush
you name" but it would have retained its original meaning. It would
also have acquired a folk-etymology, perhaps "a flower-bush could
have many names, but we typically give it only one."
You would be on firmer ground if you were to cite pub names like "The
Elephant and Castle" and "The Case is Altered", both of which came
from British soldiers in the Peninsular War trying to make sense of
the names of the Spanish inns they enjoyed.
|
You are a couple of hundred years out with those
--
John Briggs |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:57 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
|
|
At 21:24:03 on Mon, 21 Nov 2005, John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com>
wrote in <TVqgf.2623$85.1632@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>:
| Quote: | You would be on firmer ground if you were to cite pub names like "The
Elephant and Castle" and "The Case is Altered", both of which came
from British soldiers in the Peninsular War trying to make sense of
the names of the Spanish inns they enjoyed.
You are a couple of hundred years out with those
|
No doubt - history was never my strong point Which war was it,
then?
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
|
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John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:24 am
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
|
|
Molly Mockford wrote:
| Quote: | At 21:24:03 on Mon, 21 Nov 2005, John Briggs
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in
TVqgf.2623$85.1632@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>:
You would be on firmer ground if you were to cite pub names like
"The Elephant and Castle" and "The Case is Altered", both of which
came from British soldiers in the Peninsular War trying to make
sense of the names of the Spanish inns they enjoyed.
You are a couple of hundred years out with those :-)
No doubt - history was never my strong point Which war was it,
then?
|
Well, no, you are completely wrong :-)
"The Case is Altered" is the title of a play by Ben Jonson - it was already
a proverbial expression. There is a reference to " 'The Elephant' in the
South Suburbs" in "Twelfth Night". This is NOT a reference to the present
Elephant and Castle, but it does show that such inn names were already in
use.
--
John Briggs |
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izzy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions |
|
|
I think this thread is getting to the point of diminishing returns, but
I'll try to answer a few of the questions that were posed:
| Quote: | Let's look at an example of a Latin phrase that might have become
an English idiom, but we know that it did not: "e pluribus unum" which
means "out of many, one". ...
You know, this would have been a damned sight more convincing if you had
used a real example rather than a fictitious one.
|
OK. I don't know if you consider "Welsh rabbit" to be an idiom, but its
meaning certainly has nothing to do with the Welsh or rabbits. I think
it is merely a list of its ingredients in Arabic. I'll show the Hebrew
equivalents, using X for the letter het with a W-sound (parallel to
Greek digamma, preLatin V, and Germanic Wynn):
milk/cheese ale toast
XaLav SHakhaR PaT (lexem)
WeLSH RaBBiT
Please don't ask me exactly where/when this occurred. I also don't know
where the wheel was invented or who invented it. But Welsh rabbit may
be via returning crusaders or Black Irish.
| Quote: | Remind me, which one of us is it that doesn't accept dictionary etymologies?
|
Most dictionary etymologies are correct. More than a few are not.
Ironically, the three most likely to be known by a non-linguist are
false:
1 - Muscle is not from Latin musculus, a small mouse. It is related to
weight (Semitic MiSHKal), mass, and massage. If you have a lot of
muscle, you can lift/pull a lot of weight. If you lift weights, you
will develop your muscles. A small mouse has small muscles.
By the way, this mistake was probably influenced by the fact that Greek
pontiki means both mouse and muscle. But the mouse meaning of pontiki
was shortened from the phrase "mus pontikus", mouse from the Pontus
region of Anatolia. And Pontus (now in Turkey) was the location of the
biceps muscle on an anthropomorphic map of Asia minor.
2 - Cabal is not from Hebrew Kabbalah (esoteric learning, literally,
the received tradition). It is related to Hebrew het-bet-lamed XaBaL
(to plot, scheme).
3 - Sabotage has nothing to do with an old French sabot = shoe. Its
original meaning was to go on strike, that is, to treat a work-day as
if it were the Sabbath.
| Quote: | Actually, there's more to the "Body Part Maps" than your other ideas, but as
usual you are pushing it too far.
|
So, join the BPMaps group and push it back.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/ |
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