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Peter Olcott
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:34 pm
Post subject: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none else.
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:14 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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"Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net> wrote in message
news:v977f.7068$bt2.3239@okepread05...
| Quote: | That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none else.
|
The English literary tradition has several standard phrases that
indicate everywhere (from east to west) or always (from sunrise to
sunset:) but the standard phrases usually match in diction: they
do not say "from the rising of the sun to the west" etc.
"There is none beside me. I am the Lord" is a phrase found
several times in the Old Testament.
Some King James Version Bible sentences may deliberately
begin "That . . . " but they usually include a main clause, missing
here. (The second "that . . ." clause does not furnish one.) I would
guess the quoted phrase is something faultily remembered
from Anglican English.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Peter Olcott
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:53 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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"Don Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote in message news:Zba7f.30$XR4.226@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
| Quote: | "Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net> wrote in message
news:v977f.7068$bt2.3239@okepread05...
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none else.
The English literary tradition has several standard phrases that
indicate everywhere (from east to west) or always (from sunrise to
sunset:) but the standard phrases usually match in diction: they
do not say "from the rising of the sun to the west" etc.
"There is none beside me. I am the Lord" is a phrase found
several times in the Old Testament.
Some King James Version Bible sentences may deliberately
begin "That . . . " but they usually include a main clause, missing
here. (The second "that . . ." clause does not furnish one.) I would
guess the quoted phrase is something faultily remembered
from Anglican English.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Is it literally saying {Only God exists} or is it literally saying |
{No other God exists} Note I am not asking you to tell me
what you think that it means, only what it literally says.
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:03 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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Peter Olcott wrote:
| Quote: | "Don Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote in message
news:Zba7f.30$XR4.226@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net> wrote in message
news:v977f.7068$bt2.3239@okepread05...
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none
else.
The English literary tradition has several standard phrases that
indicate everywhere (from east to west) or always (from sunrise to
sunset:) but the standard phrases usually match in diction: they
do not say "from the rising of the sun to the west" etc.
"There is none beside me. I am the Lord" is a phrase found
several times in the Old Testament.
Some King James Version Bible sentences may deliberately
begin "That . . . " but they usually include a main clause,
missing
here. (The second "that . . ." clause does not furnish one.) I
would guess the quoted phrase is something faultily remembered
from Anglican English.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Is it literally saying {Only God exists} or is it literally saying
{No other God exists} Note I am not asking you to tell me
what you think that it means, only what it literally says.
|
Ah, I twig! I reason that if we think of God as addressing himself to
an existent audience, then it's got to be "no other god". Further, I
don't think the Hebrew Bible dabbles much in the doctrine that all
but God himself is mere illusion: transient, yes, but not illusory.
Somebody may know better, of course.
--
Mike. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:18 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Peter Olcott wrote:
"Don Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote in message
news:Zba7f.30$XR4.226@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net> wrote in message
news:v977f.7068$bt2.3239@okepread05...
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none
else.
|
[snip]
| Quote: | Is it literally saying {Only God exists} or is it literally saying
{No other God exists} Note I am not asking you to tell me
what you think that it means, only what it literally says.
Ah, I twig! I reason that if we think of God as addressing himself to
an existent audience, then it's got to be "no other god". Further, I
don't think the Hebrew Bible dabbles much in the doctrine that all
but God himself is mere illusion: transient, yes, but not illusory.
Somebody may know better, of course.
|
In my church days, I was taught that the God of the Old Testament was
very concerned about those idols on the hilltops that other peoples were
worshipping. Hence, for example, the First Commandment, "Thou shalt have
no other gods before me."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Peter Olcott
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:27 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:3s4t0tFm5h74U2@individual.net...
| Quote: | Peter Olcott wrote:
"Don Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote in message
news:Zba7f.30$XR4.226@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net> wrote in message
news:v977f.7068$bt2.3239@okepread05...
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none
else.
The English literary tradition has several standard phrases that
indicate everywhere (from east to west) or always (from sunrise to
sunset:) but the standard phrases usually match in diction: they
do not say "from the rising of the sun to the west" etc.
"There is none beside me. I am the Lord" is a phrase found
several times in the Old Testament.
Some King James Version Bible sentences may deliberately
begin "That . . . " but they usually include a main clause,
missing
here. (The second "that . . ." clause does not furnish one.) I
would guess the quoted phrase is something faultily remembered
from Anglican English.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Is it literally saying {Only God exists} or is it literally saying
{No other God exists} Note I am not asking you to tell me
what you think that it means, only what it literally says.
Ah, I twig! I reason that if we think of God as addressing himself to
an existent audience, then it's got to be "no other god". Further, I
don't think the Hebrew Bible dabbles much in the doctrine that all
but God himself is mere illusion: transient, yes, but not illusory.
Somebody may know better, of course.
--
Mike.
How about if we don't add or subtract the slightest nuance of |
meaning other than what is explicitly specified. |
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nancy13g
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:31 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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Peter Olcott wrote:
| Quote: | How about if we don't add or subtract the slightest nuance of
meaning other than what is explicitly specified.
|
OK. What is explicitly specified is "I am the Lord and there is none
else". The word "none" means "not one". So what is literally being said
is "I am the Lord and there is not one else".
Does that answer your literal question explicitly enough? Or did I add
or subtract a nuance or two there? |
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Wood Avens
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:33 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:03:12 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Peter Olcott wrote:
"There is none beside me. I am the Lord" is a phrase found
several times in the Old Testament.
Is it literally saying {Only God exists} or is it literally saying
{No other God exists} Note I am not asking you to tell me
what you think that it means, only what it literally says.
Ah, I twig! I reason that if we think of God as addressing himself to
an existent audience, then it's got to be "no other god". Further, I
don't think the Hebrew Bible dabbles much in the doctrine that all
but God himself is mere illusion: transient, yes, but not illusory.
Somebody may know better, of course.
|
Thjis is the sort of thing over which scholars and theologians have
argued for centuries. It looks to me (but what do I know?) as if
there's a third literal possibility, where "beside" means "equal to".
But you'd have to go back to the original (Hebrew, I assume) and see
what that said, and what it meant at the time it was written.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ |
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Bob G
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:50 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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| Quote: |
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none else.
|
| Quote: | Is it literally saying {Only God exists} or is it literally saying
{No other God exists} Note I am not asking you to tell me
what you think that it means, only what it literally says.
|
It literally says that it may be known from the rising of the sun and
from the west that there is none beside the entity that speaks. It
further states that this same entity is the Lord and that there is none
else.
It is pure nonsense if you interpret it literally. For instance, the
ancients knew from the rising of the sun that the sun goes 'round the
Earth. Later it was learned from the same source that it's the other
way around. Likewise, many things may be known from the west, exactly
what I'm not sure. Many other things could be learned from the east or
even the north northeast.
On the other hand, if you interpret it figuratively. as it is intended,
you will learn from the rising of the sun in the west, a daily affair,
repeated eternally, that there is a God, although I fail to see how it
may follow that there is no other. The second sentence repeats both
assertions but offers no further proof. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:16 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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nancy13g wrote:
| Quote: | Peter Olcott wrote:
How about if we don't add or subtract the slightest nuance of
meaning other than what is explicitly specified.
OK. What is explicitly specified is "I am the Lord and there is
none
else". The word "none" means "not one". So what is literally being
said is "I am the Lord and there is not one else".
Does that answer your literal question explicitly enough? Or did I
add
or subtract a nuance or two there?
|
Well said! I feel as though I'm being asked to jump through hoops
which aren't even there. No further meaning can be extracted from the
expression used. If the enquirer now wants to go back to the original
Hebrew, I have to bow out.
--
Mike. |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:36 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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Peter Olcott wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:3s4t0tFm5h74U2@individual.net...
Peter Olcott wrote:
"Don Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote in message
news:Zba7f.30$XR4.226@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net> wrote in message
news:v977f.7068$bt2.3239@okepread05...
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none
else.
The English literary tradition has several standard phrases that
indicate everywhere (from east to west) or always (from sunrise to
sunset:) but the standard phrases usually match in diction: they
do not say "from the rising of the sun to the west" etc.
"There is none beside me. I am the Lord" is a phrase found
several times in the Old Testament.
|
This is the KJV of Isaiah 45:6. Thanks to the search service at
<http://bible.gospelcom.net/>.
| Quote: | Some King James Version Bible sentences may deliberately
begin "That . . . " but they usually include a main clause,
missing
here. (The second "that . . ." clause does not furnish one.) I
would guess the quoted phrase is something faultily remembered
from Anglican English.
.... |
| Quote: | Is it literally saying {Only God exists} or is it literally saying
{No other God exists} Note I am not asking you to tell me
what you think that it means, only what it literally says.
Ah, I twig! I reason that if we think of God as addressing himself to
an existent audience, then it's got to be "no other god". Further, I
don't think the Hebrew Bible dabbles much in the doctrine that all
but God himself is mere illusion: transient, yes, but not illusory.
Somebody may know better, of course.
|
I'll be surprised if you can find that anywhere explicitly in the
Hebrew Bible or in mainstream Judeo-Christiano-Islamic interpretive
tradition (though maybe in an outlier or two, and I'm decreasingly sure
about the three traditions).
| Quote: | How about if we don't add or subtract the slightest nuance of
meaning other than what is explicitly specified.
|
Why would we do that? The passage contains an implicit but clear clue
that it's figurative: the juxtaposition of "the rising of the sun" with
"the west".
Also, it's in King James English, which means that we'd have to know
the nuances of "none" and "else" in the English of that time.
| Quote: | From the little I remember of Hebrew, a literalist could ask the same
question about this sentence. Of course, in context we know it means, |
"There is no other God." (The previous verse has "There is no god
beside me", which is explicit and literal in the Hebrew. Thanks to
<http://www.blueletterbible.org/>.)
--
Jerry Friedman |
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QT
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:40 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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Bob G wrote:
| Quote: |
On the other hand, if you interpret it figuratively. as it is
intended, you will learn from the rising of the sun in the west, a
daily affair, repeated eternally, that there is a God, although I
fail to see how it may follow that there is no other.
(SNIP) |
The sun does not rise in the west, or does it?
qt
-- |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:52 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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Bob G wrote:
| Quote: |
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is none else.
Is it literally saying {Only God exists} or is it literally saying
{No other God exists} Note I am not asking you to tell me
what you think that it means, only what it literally says.
It literally says that it may be known from the rising of the sun and
from the west that there is none beside the entity that speaks. It
further states that this same entity is the Lord and that there is none
else.
It is pure nonsense if you interpret it literally. For instance, the
ancients knew from the rising of the sun that the sun goes 'round the
Earth. Later it was learned from the same source that it's the other
way around.
|
Heh.
| Quote: | Likewise, many things may be known from the west, exactly
what I'm not sure. Many other things could be learned from the east or
even the north northeast.
On the other hand, if you interpret it figuratively. as it is intended,
you will learn from the rising of the sun in the west, a daily affair,
repeated eternally, that there is a God, although I fail to see how it
may follow that there is no other. The second sentence repeats both
assertions but offers no further proof.
|
My impression is that it means God's existence will be known throughout
the world, from East to West. I'm not enough of a Hebrew scholar to
tell you that for sure, though--far from it.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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Bob G
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:56 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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QT wrote:
| Quote: | Bob G wrote:
On the other hand, if you interpret it figuratively. as it is
intended, you will learn from the rising of the sun in the west, a
daily affair, repeated eternally, that there is a God, although I
fail to see how it may follow that there is no other.
(SNIP)
The sun does not rise in the west, or does it?
qt
--
|
Oops! Didn't it in Biblical times? |
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Bob G
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:01 am
Post subject: Re: Exactly what is this most literally saying? |
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| Quote: | My impression is that it means God's existence will be known throughout
the world, from East to West. I'm not enough of a Hebrew scholar to
tell you that for sure, though--far from it.
--
Jerry Friedman
|
Yes, that's it. As someone else pointed out, I had the sun rising in
the west! |
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