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Drexl's GAY Escort Agency
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:35 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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How's Northampton today Argyros ?
I'll be paying a visit next week, get some cakes in
(GAYGs)
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Splicer1X
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:55 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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Please don't pay attention to the above posting fool.He is a racist
bitchslapped victim of his lord and master GOGU, the Greek engneer and
builder of high income condos who literally owns this foolish
Anglo/Turkish loser.BTW this loser's claim to fame is his "limo
service: check this URL:Meet the servile Turkish queer and wellknown
homosexual child molester*, Seanie Ruttledge currently posting
under the following usernames: Big Butch Floppie Bwoy, Walter
Constantin Gogu Costica Brincoveanu Mitty, Pants Awry, Drexl's GAY
Escort Agency of NYC, Moo Moo MhuttsAss, Theodore HarrinGAY Mavroidis.
Costas Spyronikolapapahatziharambosdimitropoulakis,Sean Psologliftis,
Sean Poutsofagos
PICTURE
http://www.1cl.co.uk/London_Chaufeurs.htm
ADDRESS
1st Class London Chauffeurs
1 The Glade, Bickley, Bromley, Kent
London, England
BR1 2QG
CONTACT INFO
Tel London 020 8466 1723 (int + 44 20 8466 1723)
After Hours Cellphone 07767 771850
Fax 0870 134 3898
Chauffers.Lon...@1cl.co.uk
theodore.mavroidis@loaning.co.uk wrote:
*Is his own child named Chantal safe from this predatory
sexual terkk
choro-nik wrote:
| Quote: | Y is not a f**ckin' F, re Praxandro, re Ksidinopaidi.
In Inglese or English (not Ingliss or don't you have the equivalent if the SH as in SHIT (PARDON!!) it is the equivalent of the letter V at least phonetically if not frenetically.
BTW, let's hear you say Fiss & Tsips....
XiXiXi or HeHeHe in Ingliss!!! Si, si. Mouchas grazias! How did that song so re Ksidinopaidi?
Did it go Mpezame moucho? Much, much moucho, re mouchompexti....
Ma ali8ia? Or was it Mpesame moucho and you took it for "Mpazoume moucho"?
--
choro-nik
*******
"Praxandros-21" <christes00k@optonline.net> wrote in message news:ICi5f..11295$1X1.7735@fe12.lga...
EUQUFRWN uV LOXOFRWN
EUQUS --=(STREHT , IN INGKLISS)- OPPOSIT --- LOXOS (SLANTET)
FRWN FRHN ---=(MAHNTET, IN INGKLISS)
PROONAOUNST --- EFQIFRON
EFTHY = STRAIGHT VS SLANDED
FRON = MINDED
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS USE THE GREEK ALPHABET ,... ITS BEEN CONCEIVED TO BE ACRO-PHONIC SINCE ITS INCEPTION
AND HAD NEVER CHANGED.....EVER
TZHHHZAS KKRAAAHS !!!!!!
PRAX-21
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message news:h%65f.6936$5I2.24927@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"qquito" <qquito@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129619081.928768.75390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hell, All:
Can anyone tell how the word "Euthyphro" in Plato's dialogue thus
titled is pronounced? I am talking about the Euthypro Dilemma
recorded
in the dialogue.
All the interesting discussion about ancient and modern Greek
pronunciations to one side, I think it's the modern English
pronunciation you want. I suggest "YOUTH-i-fro". I admit I don't
recall ever hearing the name pronounced but, if it's connected with
"euthphron" (right-minded), then, even though the accent in Greek was
placed as you see, the upsilon is short (according to my big _Liddell
and Scott_): which means the word would have gone from Latin into
English with the stress* on the first syllable.
The other possibility is "you-THI-fro", based on taking the Greek
tonal accent as a stress mark. I should think either version would be
accepted without comment. Oh, and the "th" would probably be unvoiced
in the first version, especially by North Americans, and voiced in the
second, as in "this".
_________________
*Note distinction between accent and stress. Ancient Greek was
apparently a language that marked syllables by length and tone more
than by stress. |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:01 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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Karipidu Marianna wrote:
| Quote: | "Karipidu Marianna" <karipidu@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qKmdnahITfUPPsjeRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
"qquito" <qquito@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129619081.928768.75390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hell, All:
Can anyone tell how the word "Euthyphro" in Plato's dialogue thus
titled is pronounced? I am talking about the Euthypro Dilemma recorded
in the dialogue.
Thanks.
--Roland
The diphthong " Eu " is pronounced as "Ev."
Example:
Greek: Ευημερια= evi meria = prosperity.
But if followed by the consonant theta (=th,
Greek: θ ), it is pronounced as "Ef."
Example:
Greek: Ευθυφρων= Ef thyphron= Ef thyfron.
So, Euthyphron is pronounced as Ef thy fron.
Another example:
Greek: Ευθεια= Ef theia= straight line
or
Ευθανασια= Euthanasia= Ef thanasia> > painless death
Καρυπιδου Μαριαννα
You have to remember this: If the EU is followed
by the consonants
θ= th,
κ= k,
ξ= ks,
π= p,
σ= s,
τ= t,
φ= f,
χ= h,
ψ= ps,
it is pronounced as EF.
|
You can just call those the voiceless or unvoiced consonants. (I don't
really understand what "fortis" means, so I don't know whether you can
call them that.) Those terms are widely known, and probably
universally known in a.u.e.
--
Jerry Friedman wonders whether he just used an Oxford/Harvard comma (in
the old sense).
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:14 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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CDB wrote:
| Quote: | "Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:LpmdnZ9WwuHlqMjeRVnysw@pipex.net...
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:msa5f.6983$5I2.25266@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:voCdnd617bmcssjeRVnysA@pipex.net...
[...]
The modern Greek pronunciation is the same as the ancinet.
Funny old Greeks, inventing all those different ways of writing
"ee".
Funny old Canadians, not being able to hear the difference.
http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html
Thank you. An interesting account. I note that the author agrees
with me that there are rather a lot of ways of spelling "ee" (section
153" "...the Greeks gave to several letters the sound of 'I'," and
section 157). He also seems to think there have been sound changes
from time to time (section 160).
|
And in fact many of the sound changes are from the "Erasmian"
pronunciation to the modern one. Caragounis just saying they happened
earlier than many non-Greek scholars think.
| Quote: | I should add that I don't defend the Western academic pronunciation of
ancient Greek on the grounds of phonetic accuracy, particularly with
regard to the vowel sounds; it is hardly possible that any one system
of pronunciation could reproduce the different speech-sounds of a
language with such a long history of continuous use. But I think its
ability to reflect classical Attic and Koine spelling is useful for
scholars who deal almost entirely with the written texts, perhaps
unlike the scholars of Greece who see it, and use it, as an archaic
form of their own language.
I can't believe that there have been no sound changes over the last
two and one-half millennia. I would have to see some reason why Greek
should have been excepted from the common fate of all languages for so
long. I don't expect to convince you either, of course.
.... |
I *think* the claim is that for two and a half millennia, any sound
changes have been mirrored by spelling changes, as in eptas and eftas,
the two modern ways to say and write 7.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:06 am
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129828450.974490.52910@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | CDB wrote:
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:LpmdnZ9WwuHlqMjeRVnysw@pipex.net...
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:msa5f.6983$5I2.25266@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:voCdnd617bmcssjeRVnysA@pipex.net...
|
[...]
| Quote: | The modern Greek pronunciation is the same as the ancinet.
Funny old Greeks, inventing all those different ways of writing
"ee".
Funny old Canadians, not being able to hear the difference.
http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html
Thank you. An interesting account. I note that the author agrees
with me that there are rather a lot of ways of spelling "ee"
(section
153" "...the Greeks gave to several letters the sound of 'I'," and
section 157). He also seems to think there have been sound changes
from time to time (section 160).
And in fact many of the sound changes are from the "Erasmian"
pronunciation to the modern one. Caragounis just saying they
happened
earlier than many non-Greek scholars think.
|
[...]
| Quote: | I can't believe that there have been no sound changes over the last
two and one-half millennia. I would have to see some reason why
Greek
should have been excepted from the common fate of all languages for
so
long. I don't expect to convince you either, of course.
...
I *think* the claim is that for two and a half millennia, any sound
changes have been mirrored by spelling changes, as in eptas and
eftas,
the two modern ways to say and write 7.
|
I agree that that's the claim, along with the imprecise nature of the
spelling system from the beginning. I persist in believing, if only
on general principles, more sound than spelling changes took place:
that, for example, "eta", "iota", "upsilon", "epsilon iota" and
"omicron iota" were all pronounced differently, that "beta" was
pronounced like the modern "b" (a sound it retains following "mu", as
modern borrowings indicate), and that the "rough breathing" was
pronounced as "h" at least at some point in the classical period. All
these changes, as I see them, correspond too closely to sound changes
in other languages to be denied. After the time of innovation,
tradition and the prestige of Attic/Ionic might have resulted in
frozen spellings for a long while.
I guess, again, what I have trouble accepting is that the spellings
that were set when the Athenians adopted the Ionic system didn't
reflect the speech of at least some contemporary Greeks (in the case
of Attic, the aristocracy). Besides the long history, another fudge
factor (Hi Maggie!) would be the existence of many different local and
perhaps class dialects. Those, and imperfect literacy, seem to me to
account for the early variant spellings cited in the paper as
evidence that the spelling never precisely reflected speech.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting that Greeks, or anyone else, should
change a pronunciation they believe is the one true one, to please me.
I wouldn't consider changing the "Erasmian" pronunciation that I find
familiar, convenient and useful, to please them; or suggesting that
anyone else should do so. |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:24 am
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
|
|
CDB wrote:
| Quote: | jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129828450.974490.52910@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
CDB wrote:
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:LpmdnZ9WwuHlqMjeRVnysw@pipex.net...
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:msa5f.6983$5I2.25266@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:voCdnd617bmcssjeRVnysA@pipex.net...
[...]
The modern Greek pronunciation is the same as the ancinet.
Funny old Greeks, inventing all those different ways of writing
"ee".
Funny old Canadians, not being able to hear the difference.
http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html
Thank you. An interesting account. I note that the author agrees
with me that there are rather a lot of ways of spelling "ee"
(section
153" "...the Greeks gave to several letters the sound of 'I'," and
section 157). He also seems to think there have been sound changes
from time to time (section 160).
And in fact many of the sound changes are from the "Erasmian"
pronunciation to the modern one. Caragounis just saying they
happened
earlier than many non-Greek scholars think.
[...]
I can't believe that there have been no sound changes over the last
two and one-half millennia. I would have to see some reason why
Greek
should have been excepted from the common fate of all languages for
so
long. I don't expect to convince you either, of course.
...
I *think* the claim is that for two and a half millennia, any sound
changes have been mirrored by spelling changes, as in eptas and
eftas,
|
Sorry, epta and efta.
| Quote: | the two modern ways to say and write 7.
I agree that that's the claim, along with the imprecise nature of the
spelling system from the beginning. I persist in believing, if only
on general principles, more sound than spelling changes took place:
that, for example, "eta", "iota", "upsilon", "epsilon iota" and
"omicron iota" were all pronounced differently, that "beta" was
pronounced like the modern "b" (a sound it retains following "mu", as
modern borrowings indicate), and that the "rough breathing" was
pronounced as "h" at least at some point in the classical period. All
these changes, as I see them, correspond too closely to sound changes
in other languages to be denied.
|
You're more or less agreeing with Caragounis. "Thus, the pronunciation
of AI tended towards and finally became identical with that of E, that
of EI, OI, and UI with I, while with U increasingly moving towards I,
the sound of U came to be represented by OU 28. This process, as the
evidence of the inscriptions indicates, was, for the most part,
initiated already in pre-classical antiquity." The only difference is
the time of the process.
| Quote: | After the time of innovation,
tradition and the prestige of Attic/Ionic might have resulted in
frozen spellings for a long while.
I guess, again, what I have trouble accepting is that the spellings
that were set when the Athenians adopted the Ionic system didn't
reflect the speech of at least some contemporary Greeks (in the case
of Attic, the aristocracy). Besides the long history, another fudge
factor (Hi Maggie!) would be the existence of many different local and
perhaps class dialects. Those, and imperfect literacy, seem to me to
account for the early variant spellings cited in the paper as
evidence that the spelling never precisely reflected speech.
.... |
Indeed. The first written evidence for non-rhoticism in English is
from the early 17th century, I think ("juggernaut"), but that doesn't
mean that the great English-language writers and philosophers of the
twentieth century were all non-rhotic, or even just the great English
ones.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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Witziges Rtsel
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:19 am
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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| Quote: | All the vowels and consonants have changed their sound in Germanic
languages in the past 2000 years whereas in Greek they have remained
constant so do not consider English as a guide to Greek pronunciation.
Who told you that? Greek has changed a great deal in that time.
Who told you that?
Why don't you learn to speak Greek and then you will find out that it is
unpronounceable in any way except the modern pronunciation. That's why is
hasn't changed it sound in over 2000 years. Why don't you also learn
Italian and you will find out that it sounds closer to modern Greek than
it does to German or English.
|
Why don't you learn Cherokee or Yoruba? You'll thus learn more
about Greek, both ancient and modern, than you apparently know now. |
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CDB
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:57 am
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
|
|
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129839875.900321.20460@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[...]
| Quote: | I *think* the claim is that for two and a half millennia, any
sound
changes have been mirrored by spelling changes, as in eptas and
eftas,
Sorry, epta and efta.
the two modern ways to say and write 7.
I agree that that's the claim, along with the imprecise nature of
the
spelling system from the beginning. I persist in believing, if
only
on general principles, more sound than spelling changes took place:
that, for example, "eta", "iota", "upsilon", "epsilon iota" and
"omicron iota" were all pronounced differently, that "beta" was
pronounced like the modern "b" (a sound it retains following "mu",
as
modern borrowings indicate), and that the "rough breathing" was
pronounced as "h" at least at some point in the classical period.
All
these changes, as I see them, correspond too closely to sound
changes
in other languages to be denied.
You're more or less agreeing with Caragounis. "Thus, the
pronunciation
of AI tended towards and finally became identical with that of E,
that
of EI, OI, and UI with I, while with U increasingly moving towards
I,
the sound of U came to be represented by OU 28. This process, as the
evidence of the inscriptions indicates, was, for the most part,
initiated already in pre-classical antiquity." The only difference
is
the time of the process.
|
Yes, more or less, and depending on what the meaning of the word
"initiated" is. I can't help thinking that if they had been
pronouncing words in a particular way c.500 BCE, they would have
decided to spell them the same way.
| Quote: | After the time of innovation,
tradition and the prestige of Attic/Ionic might have resulted in
frozen spellings for a long while.
I guess, again, what I have trouble accepting is that the spellings
that were set when the Athenians adopted the Ionic system didn't
reflect the speech of at least some contemporary Greeks (in the
case
of Attic, the aristocracy). Besides the long history, another
fudge
factor (Hi Maggie!) would be the existence of many different local
and
perhaps class dialects. Those, and imperfect literacy, seem to me
to
account for the early variant spellings cited in the paper as
evidence that the spelling never precisely reflected speech.
...
Indeed. The first written evidence for non-rhoticism in English is
from the early 17th century, I think ("juggernaut"), but that
doesn't
mean that the great English-language writers and philosophers of the
twentieth century were all non-rhotic, or even just the great
English
ones.
|
As you say. And as you said, it's a question of timing. I looked a
little way into it many years ago, out of personal interest, and came
to the conclusion, based on such things as borrowings between Greek
and (mostly) Latin (for example "gubernator" from "kubernetes",
compared with the later use of "y" for "upsilon"), that the
conventional Erasmian pronunciation was the one I wanted to use. The
books are far away, and all I can really remember now is the
conclusions.
The thread started with the question of how to pronounce "Euthyphro"
in English, and I think we probably agree on that. |
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Praxandros-21
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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Hotza-malaka, Vasif-kiofte, correct English syntax follows the Greek syntax
....and I don't give lessons to ...mongoloid -watermelon-heads of your kind........sorry.
I suggest you stay out of matters you DON'T KNOW JACK.
and...
Your attempted "Greek" is so bad that it is embarrassing even to a typical of a tourko-hamali who trade donkeys in an Istanbul bazaar !!
Get rid of it.
Xtes-00k
"choro-nik" <choro-nik@tvcom.net> wrote in message news:feH5f.57298$U9.6496@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Re Praxandro,
Do you mean it *had* never changed until such and such a date or event?
OR
Do you mean it *has* never changed?
Th na se kanoumen, re Ksidinopaidi? Theleis na sou steilo stafili oi karpouzi, re more mou?
--
choro-nik
*******
"Praxandros-21" <christes00k@optonline.net> wrote in message news:ICi5f.11295$1X1.7735@fe12.lga...
EUQUFRWN uV LOXOFRWN
EUQUS --=(STREHT , IN INGKLISS)- OPPOSIT --- LOXOS (SLANTET)
FRWN FRHN ---=(MAHNTET, IN INGKLISS)
PROONAOUNST --- EFQIFRON
EFTHY = STRAIGHT VS SLANDED
FRON = MINDED
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS USE THE GREEK ALPHABET ,... ITS BEEN CONCEIVED TO BE ACRO-PHONIC SINCE ITS INCEPTION
AND HAD NEVER CHANGED.....EVER
TZHHHZAS KKRAAAHS !!!!!!
PRAX-21
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message news:h%65f.6936$5I2.24927@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"qquito" <qquito@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129619081.928768.75390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hell, All:
Can anyone tell how the word "Euthyphro" in Plato's dialogue thus
titled is pronounced? I am talking about the Euthypro Dilemma
recorded
in the dialogue.
|
All the interesting discussion about ancient and modern Greek
pronunciations to one side, I think it's the modern English
pronunciation you want. I suggest "YOUTH-i-fro". I admit I don't
recall ever hearing the name pronounced but, if it's connected with
"euthphron" (right-minded), then, even though the accent in Greek was
placed as you see, the upsilon is short (according to my big _Liddell
and Scott_): which means the word would have gone from Latin into
English with the stress* on the first syllable.
The other possibility is "you-THI-fro", based on taking the Greek
tonal accent as a stress mark. I should think either version would be
accepted without comment. Oh, and the "th" would probably be unvoiced
in the first version, especially by North Americans, and voiced in the
second, as in "this".
_________________
*Note distinction between accent and stress. Ancient Greek was
apparently a language that marked syllables by length and tone more
than by stress. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Praxandros-21
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
|
|
AGAIN....I suggest you stay out of matters you DON'T KNOW JACK.
@#%$ TON SSHSTON SOU !
@#$% TON SHISTON SOU !
It is becoming axiomatic...Turks cannot contribute anything intelligent.
Prax21
"choro-nik" <choro-nik@tvcom.net> wrote in message news:krH5f.57304$U9.20758@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Y is not a f**ckin' F, re Praxandro, re Ksidinopaidi.
In Inglese or English (not Ingliss or don't you have the equivalent if the SH as in SHIT (PARDON!!) it is the equivalent of the letter V at least phonetically if not frenetically.
BTW, let's hear you say Fiss & Tsips....
XiXiXi or HeHeHe in Ingliss!!! Si, si. Mouchas grazias! How did that song so re Ksidinopaidi?
Did it go Mpezame moucho? Much, much moucho, re mouchompexti....
Ma ali8ia? Or was it Mpesame moucho and you took it for "Mpazoume moucho"?
--
choro-nik
*******
"Praxandros-21" <christes00k@optonline.net> wrote in message news:ICi5f.11295$1X1.7735@fe12.lga...
EUQUFRWN uV LOXOFRWN
EUQUS --=(STREHT , IN INGKLISS)- OPPOSIT --- LOXOS (SLANTET)
FRWN FRHN ---=(MAHNTET, IN INGKLISS)
PROONAOUNST --- EFQIFRON
EFTHY = STRAIGHT VS SLANDED
FRON = MINDED
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS USE THE GREEK ALPHABET ,... ITS BEEN CONCEIVED TO BE ACRO-PHONIC SINCE ITS INCEPTION
AND HAD NEVER CHANGED.....EVER
TZHHHZAS KKRAAAHS !!!!!!
PRAX-21
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message news:h%65f.6936$5I2.24927@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"qquito" <qquito@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129619081.928768.75390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hell, All:
Can anyone tell how the word "Euthyphro" in Plato's dialogue thus
titled is pronounced? I am talking about the Euthypro Dilemma
recorded
in the dialogue.
|
All the interesting discussion about ancient and modern Greek
pronunciations to one side, I think it's the modern English
pronunciation you want. I suggest "YOUTH-i-fro". I admit I don't
recall ever hearing the name pronounced but, if it's connected with
"euthphron" (right-minded), then, even though the accent in Greek was
placed as you see, the upsilon is short (according to my big _Liddell
and Scott_): which means the word would have gone from Latin into
English with the stress* on the first syllable.
The other possibility is "you-THI-fro", based on taking the Greek
tonal accent as a stress mark. I should think either version would be
accepted without comment. Oh, and the "th" would probably be unvoiced
in the first version, especially by North Americans, and voiced in the
second, as in "this".
_________________
*Note distinction between accent and stress. Ancient Greek was
apparently a language that marked syllables by length and tone more
than by stress. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
choro-nik
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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Caught in flagrante and you still denyin' it, re Moustakalli?
You 'ave come cheek, I must admit.
BTW, I didn't know that you were sold at the Donkey Bazaar in Istanbul? Pity you didn't even make the Mule Bazaar. You could have fetched a slightly higher price there.
--
choro-nik
*******
"Praxandros-21" <christes00k@optonline.net> wrote in message news:8b%5f.30769$Ge5.24461@fe10.lga...
Hotza-malaka, Vasif-kiofte, correct English syntax follows the Greek syntax
...and I don't give lessons to ...mongoloid -watermelon-heads of your kind........sorry.
I suggest you stay out of matters you DON'T KNOW JACK.
and...
Your attempted "Greek" is so bad that it is embarrassing even to a typical of a tourko-hamali who trade donkeys in an Istanbul bazaar !!
Get rid of it.
Xtes-00k
"choro-nik" <choro-nik@tvcom.net> wrote in message news:feH5f.57298$U9.6496@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Re Praxandro,
Do you mean it *had* never changed until such and such a date or event?
OR
Do you mean it *has* never changed?
Th na se kanoumen, re Ksidinopaidi? Theleis na sou steilo stafili oi karpouzi, re more mou?
--
choro-nik
*******
"Praxandros-21" <christes00k@optonline.net> wrote in message news:ICi5f.11295$1X1.7735@fe12.lga...
EUQUFRWN uV LOXOFRWN
EUQUS --=(STREHT , IN INGKLISS)- OPPOSIT --- LOXOS (SLANTET)
FRWN FRHN ---=(MAHNTET, IN INGKLISS)
PROONAOUNST --- EFQIFRON
EFTHY = STRAIGHT VS SLANDED
FRON = MINDED
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS USE THE GREEK ALPHABET ,... ITS BEEN CONCEIVED TO BE ACRO-PHONIC SINCE ITS INCEPTION
AND HAD NEVER CHANGED.....EVER
TZHHHZAS KKRAAAHS !!!!!!
PRAX-21
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message news:h%65f.6936$5I2.24927@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"qquito" <qquito@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129619081.928768.75390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hell, All:
Can anyone tell how the word "Euthyphro" in Plato's dialogue thus
titled is pronounced? I am talking about the Euthypro Dilemma
recorded
in the dialogue.
|
All the interesting discussion about ancient and modern Greek
pronunciations to one side, I think it's the modern English
pronunciation you want. I suggest "YOUTH-i-fro". I admit I don't
recall ever hearing the name pronounced but, if it's connected with
"euthphron" (right-minded), then, even though the accent in Greek was
placed as you see, the upsilon is short (according to my big _Liddell
and Scott_): which means the word would have gone from Latin into
English with the stress* on the first syllable.
The other possibility is "you-THI-fro", based on taking the Greek
tonal accent as a stress mark. I should think either version would be
accepted without comment. Oh, and the "th" would probably be unvoiced
in the first version, especially by North Americans, and voiced in the
second, as in "this".
_________________
*Note distinction between accent and stress. Ancient Greek was
apparently a language that marked syllables by length and tone more
than by stress. |
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choro-nik
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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Didn't know how to react, did you now, Ksidinopaidi?!!!
At least this Turk takes the mickey out of you, wouldn't you say so?
--
choro-nik
*******
"Praxandros-21" <christes00k@optonline.net> wrote in message news:pv%5f.1707$fn.790@fe08.lga...
AGAIN....I suggest you stay out of matters you DON'T KNOW JACK.
@#%$ TON SSHSTON SOU !
@#$% TON SHISTON SOU !
It is becoming axiomatic...Turks cannot contribute anything intelligent.
Prax21
"choro-nik" <choro-nik@tvcom.net> wrote in message news:krH5f.57304$U9.20758@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Y is not a f**ckin' F, re Praxandro, re Ksidinopaidi.
In Inglese or English (not Ingliss or don't you have the equivalent if the SH as in SHIT (PARDON!!) it is the equivalent of the letter V at least phonetically if not frenetically.
BTW, let's hear you say Fiss & Tsips....
XiXiXi or HeHeHe in Ingliss!!! Si, si. Mouchas grazias! How did that song so re Ksidinopaidi?
Did it go Mpezame moucho? Much, much moucho, re mouchompexti....
Ma ali8ia? Or was it Mpesame moucho and you took it for "Mpazoume moucho"?
--
choro-nik
*******
"Praxandros-21" <christes00k@optonline.net> wrote in message news:ICi5f.11295$1X1.7735@fe12.lga...
EUQUFRWN uV LOXOFRWN
EUQUS --=(STREHT , IN INGKLISS)- OPPOSIT --- LOXOS (SLANTET)
FRWN FRHN ---=(MAHNTET, IN INGKLISS)
PROONAOUNST --- EFQIFRON
EFTHY = STRAIGHT VS SLANDED
FRON = MINDED
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS USE THE GREEK ALPHABET ,... ITS BEEN CONCEIVED TO BE ACRO-PHONIC SINCE ITS INCEPTION
AND HAD NEVER CHANGED.....EVER
TZHHHZAS KKRAAAHS !!!!!!
PRAX-21
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message news:h%65f.6936$5I2.24927@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"qquito" <qquito@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129619081.928768.75390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hell, All:
Can anyone tell how the word "Euthyphro" in Plato's dialogue thus
titled is pronounced? I am talking about the Euthypro Dilemma
recorded
in the dialogue.
|
All the interesting discussion about ancient and modern Greek
pronunciations to one side, I think it's the modern English
pronunciation you want. I suggest "YOUTH-i-fro". I admit I don't
recall ever hearing the name pronounced but, if it's connected with
"euthphron" (right-minded), then, even though the accent in Greek was
placed as you see, the upsilon is short (according to my big _Liddell
and Scott_): which means the word would have gone from Latin into
English with the stress* on the first syllable.
The other possibility is "you-THI-fro", based on taking the Greek
tonal accent as a stress mark. I should think either version would be
accepted without comment. Oh, and the "th" would probably be unvoiced
in the first version, especially by North Americans, and voiced in the
second, as in "this".
_________________
*Note distinction between accent and stress. Ancient Greek was
apparently a language that marked syllables by length and tone more
than by stress. |
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Costas Spyronikolapapahat
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:01 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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Choro PWNS PratAndDross-21 again !
Lovin it ! |
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Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129828450.974490.52910@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | CDB wrote:
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:LpmdnZ9WwuHlqMjeRVnysw@pipex.net...
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:msa5f.6983$5I2.25266@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:voCdnd617bmcssjeRVnysA@pipex.net...
[...]
The modern Greek pronunciation is the same as the ancinet.
Funny old Greeks, inventing all those different ways of writing
"ee".
Funny old Canadians, not being able to hear the difference.
http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html
Thank you. An interesting account. I note that the author agrees
with me that there are rather a lot of ways of spelling "ee" (section
153" "...the Greeks gave to several letters the sound of 'I'," and
section 157). He also seems to think there have been sound changes
from time to time (section 160).
And in fact many of the sound changes are from the "Erasmian"
pronunciation to the modern one. Caragounis just saying they happened
earlier than many non-Greek scholars think.
|
WRONG. He is saying that there was never an Erasmian pronunciation period,
otherwise the Greek language would have been completely unpronounceable.
Try pronouncing Buzdzdantioi insted of Buzzantioi. Try pronouncing bdomos
instead of vdhomos. Try pronouncing ekgdemia instead of ekghdhmia. If anyone
had used these un-Greek proncoiaiton they would have degenerated
immediately, therefore Greek can NEVER have been pronounced that way.
In fact if you can go back all the way to proto-Indo-European you will find
that EVERY word root is completely unpronounceable because it is falsely
based on Germanic pronunciation. It has been falsely assumed that Sanskrit
was pronounced like modern English and Latin was pronounced like modern
English and Greek was pronounced like modern English which everyone knows
has undergone massive phonetic changes due to Grimm's Law when in fact
Sanskrit, Latin, and proto-Germanic were pronounced like modern GREEK.
Greek has never changed its pronunciation because the Minoan Greeks were the
so-called proto-Indo-European and proto-Indo-European is only pronounceable
if it is pronounced like modern Greek. The Greek were the first Europeans to
use a proper alphabet and that preserved the pronunciation of Greek whereas
other European languages changed their pronunciation because the did not
have an alphabet.
The proto-Indo-European B was actually pronounced V and this sound is
pronounced in modern Greek. The proto-Indo-European D was actually
pronounced Dh and this sound is pronounced in modern Greek as delta. The
proto-Indo-European G was actually pronounced Gh and this sound is
pronounced in modern Greek as gamma. The proto-Indo-European F was actually
pronounced F not b^h or p^h. The proto-Indo-European TH was actually
pronounced Th like Greek theta not d^h. The proto-Indo-European H was
actually pronounced H and not g^h. The proto-Indo-European P was actually
pronounced B like the modern Greek pi. The proto-Indo-European T was
actually pronounced D like the modern Greek tau and the proto-Indo-European
K was actually pronounced G like the modern Greek kappa. All of these
consonantal sounds changed in Germanic languages but were unaffected in
Greek. The Italian and Indian sounds for these consonants are closer to the
softer modern Greek sounds than to the hard Germanic sounds which is why
Indians and Italians speak English with a funny accent and vice versa
whereas it is far easier for the to speak Greek without a funny accent vice
versa.
| Quote: |
I should add that I don't defend the Western academic pronunciation of
ancient Greek on the grounds of phonetic accuracy, particularly with
regard to the vowel sounds; it is hardly possible that any one system
of pronunciation could reproduce the different speech-sounds of a
language with such a long history of continuous use. But I think its
ability to reflect classical Attic and Koine spelling is useful for
scholars who deal almost entirely with the written texts, perhaps
unlike the scholars of Greece who see it, and use it, as an archaic
form of their own language.
I can't believe that there have been no sound changes over the last
two and one-half millennia. I would have to see some reason why Greek
should have been excepted from the common fate of all languages for so
long. I don't expect to convince you either, of course.
...
I *think* the claim is that for two and a half millennia, any sound
changes have been mirrored by spelling changes, as in eptas and eftas,
the two modern ways to say and write 7.
--
Jerry Friedman
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Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: How to Pronounce "Euthyphro"? |
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"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:JMS5f.369$713.1049@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
| Quote: |
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129828450.974490.52910@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
CDB wrote:
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:LpmdnZ9WwuHlqMjeRVnysw@pipex.net...
"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:msa5f.6983$5I2.25266@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
"Agamemnon" <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:voCdnd617bmcssjeRVnysA@pipex.net...
[...]
The modern Greek pronunciation is the same as the ancinet.
Funny old Greeks, inventing all those different ways of writing
"ee".
Funny old Canadians, not being able to hear the difference.
http://www.bsw.org/?l=72081&a=Art06.html
Thank you. An interesting account. I note that the author agrees
with me that there are rather a lot of ways of spelling "ee" (section
153" "...the Greeks gave to several letters the sound of 'I'," and
section 157). He also seems to think there have been sound changes
from time to time (section 160).
And in fact many of the sound changes are from the "Erasmian"
pronunciation to the modern one. Caragounis just saying they happened
earlier than many non-Greek scholars think.
[...]
I can't believe that there have been no sound changes over the last
two and one-half millennia. I would have to see some reason why Greek
should have been excepted from the common fate of all languages for so
long. I don't expect to convince you either, of course.
...
I *think* the claim is that for two and a half millennia, any sound
changes have been mirrored by spelling changes, as in eptas and eftas,
the two modern ways to say and write 7.
I agree that that's the claim, along with the imprecise nature of the
spelling system from the beginning. I persist in believing, if only on
general principles, more sound than spelling changes took place: that, for
example, "eta", "iota", "upsilon", "epsilon iota" and "omicron iota" were
all pronounced differently,
|
Not so. Miss-spellings show that the diphthongs oi and ei were pronounced as
the are today and the letters ita, iota and ypsilon were originally
consonants in the proto-Sinaitic script which was the basis of the Greek
alphabet therefore their sounds were indeterminate and a significant
proportion of the population would have pronounced them the same way as
today with this becoming a majority by Hellenistic times..
| Quote: | that "beta" was pronounced like the modern "b" (a sound it retains
following "mu", as
|
Wrong. Spelling variations show that beta is interchanged with delta
therefore beta cannot possibly be b but it must be v and delta must be
"the".
Further more Dionysios Thraikos writing in 100 BC states that beta is the
middle sound between the consonants pi (pronounced like the English letter
b) and fi which is v. If the Erasmian system is used the middle sound of PPH
is P which is nonsensical therefore Dionysios Thraikos can not have had that
in mind.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Greek.htm
| Quote: | modern borrowings indicate), and that the "rough breathing" was pronounced
as "h" at least at some point in the classical period. All
|
Nascence.
| Quote: | these changes, as I see them, correspond too closely to sound changes in
other languages to be denied. After the time of innovation,
|
And that is where you are going wrong. Greek is NOT other languages. Greek
is Greek and the Greeks themelseves stated reputedly that the Barbarians
were so called because they could not pronounce Greek correctly. Therefore
Barbarian languages such as Germanic can not be used as the basis Greek was
pronounced.
| Quote: | tradition and the prestige of Attic/Ionic might have resulted in frozen
spellings for a long while.
I guess, again, what I have trouble accepting is that the spellings that
were set when the Athenians adopted the Ionic system didn't reflect the
speech of at least some contemporary Greeks (in the case of Attic, the
aristocracy). Besides the long history, another fudge factor (Hi Maggie!)
would be the existence of many different local and perhaps class dialects.
Those, and imperfect literacy, seem to me to account for the early variant
spellings cited in the paper as evidence that the spelling never
precisely reflected speech.
|
Wrong. Greek was spelled as is was pronounced and pronounced as it was
spelled. There was no fixed spelling system. Greeks were taught the correct
pronunciation of the alphabet and that is all you need to know to spell any
word in Greek. If a dialcet pronced a word differntly then its spelling was
different. That is the only reason why we know Greek dialects existed. If
you were to look at English on the other hand you would never know that
dialects exist since English spelling is fixed and based on the
pronunciation of the Frankish aristocracy and therefore does not reflect the
sound of the language up north or in Wales or Scotland or Birmingham or
London etc.
| Quote: |
I wouldn't dream of suggesting that Greeks, or anyone else, should change
a pronunciation they believe is the one true one, to please me. I wouldn't
consider changing the "Erasmian" pronunciation that I find familiar,
convenient and useful, to please them; or suggesting that anyone else
should do so.
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