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Message |
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:20 pm
Post subject: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
My understanding is that, scientifically
speaking, the thumb is indisputably a finger,
but conventional usage sometimes sets it
apart, meaning in effect that it's not a
finger.
If this is correct, and leaving scientific
definitions aside, is it more usual to
count the thumb as one of the fingers or not ?
In my own language, we simply call the thumb
the big finger or the great/grand finger.
If one of you native users of English were
asked to settle the argument, which party
would you favour ?
I'll appreciate some quick answers. And
please remember that a considerable sum
of money is riding on this 
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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On 16 Oct 2005, wrote
| Quote: | I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
My understanding is that, scientifically
speaking, the thumb is indisputably a finger,
but conventional usage sometimes sets it
apart, meaning in effect that it's not a
finger.
If this is correct, and leaving scientific
definitions aside, is it more usual to
count the thumb as one of the fingers or not ?
In my own language, we simply call the thumb
the big finger or the great/grand finger.
If one of you native users of English were
asked to settle the argument, which party
would you favour ?
I'll appreciate some quick answers. And
please remember that a considerable sum
of money is riding on this
|
Idiomatically it's spoken of as a finger (as well as being
distinguished as a thumb).
If someone says "I can count the number of times I've heard that on the
fingers of one hand", he means "up to or including five", not "up to or
including four".
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:22 am
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | On 16 Oct 2005, wrote
I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
My understanding is that, scientifically
speaking, the thumb is indisputably a finger,
but conventional usage sometimes sets it
apart, meaning in effect that it's not a
finger.
If this is correct, and leaving scientific
definitions aside, is it more usual to
count the thumb as one of the fingers or not ?
In my own language, we simply call the thumb
the big finger or the great/grand finger.
If one of you native users of English were
asked to settle the argument, which party
would you favour ?
I'll appreciate some quick answers. And
please remember that a considerable sum
of money is riding on this :-)
Idiomatically it's spoken of as a finger (as well as being
distinguished as a thumb).
If someone says "I can count the number of times I've heard that on the
fingers of one hand", he means "up to or including five", not "up to or
including four".
|
I agree. However, I was curious about one question concerning fingers
and did some Google searches. Cartoon characters are often drawn with
only three fingers and a thumb. A search via Google appears to show
such characters as sometimes described as having "three fingers" and
sometimes as having "four fingers": "three fingers and a thumb" is
rarely used. Here's one interesting use of the latter:
From
http://www.dvd.net.au/review.cgi?review_id=2125
"Not surprisingly [Futurama] shares a look with [Matt] Groening's
other work, with humans possessing only four fingers on each hand (or
for the anally retentive, three fingers and a thumb)[....]"
On *The Simpsons,* another program by Groening, God is often, but not
always, represented as having four fingers and a thumb, with the result
that on the Web, in pages referring to the cartoon program, he might be
said to have "three fingers," "four fingers," or "five fingers,"
depending upon the usage preferred by the author of the Web page and
which representation he is describing.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
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ray o'hara
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:33 am
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1129486925.223236.241480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I agree. However, I was curious about one question concerning fingers
and did some Google searches. Cartoon characters are often drawn with
only three fingers and a thumb. A search via Google appears to show
such characters as sometimes described as having "three fingers" and
sometimes as having "four fingers": "three fingers and a thumb" is
rarely used. Here's one interesting use of the latter:
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They do that because drawing five fingers looks creepy. |
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M. J. Powell
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:31 am
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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In message <1129483250.809904.153350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
pjdd@rediffmail.com writes
| Quote: | I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
|
In the UK the NHS counts the thumb as a finger. If you go into A & E
with an injury to a little finger it will be recorded as an injury to
Finger No.5
Mike
--
M.J.Powell |
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Weatherlawyer
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:33 am
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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ray o'hara wrote:
| Quote: | They do that because drawing five fingers looks creepy.
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All cartoons are drawn out of proportion. This is so they look in
proportion. The reason is the same as the one for which the symbols for
yin and yang are drawn with the black symbol slightly smaller than the
white one. |
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Adrian Bailey
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:21 am
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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Yes.
Adrian |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:56 am
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
| Quote: |
Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 16 Oct 2005, wrote
I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
|
<snip>
| Quote: | Idiomatically it's spoken of as a finger (as well as being
distinguished as a thumb).
If someone says "I can count the number of times I've heard that on the
fingers of one hand", he means "up to or including five", not "up to or
including four".
I agree. However, I was curious about one question concerning fingers
and did some Google searches. Cartoon characters are often drawn with
only three fingers and a thumb. A search via Google appears to show
such characters as sometimes described as having "three fingers" and
sometimes as having "four fingers": "three fingers and a thumb" is
rarely used. Here's one interesting use of the latter:
From
http://www.dvd.net.au/review.cgi?review_id=2125
"Not surprisingly [Futurama] shares a look with [Matt] Groening's
other work, with humans possessing only four fingers on each hand (or
for the anally retentive, three fingers and a thumb)[....]"
|
The "ring finger" is sometimes said to be the third finger and
sometimes the fourth; likewise for the others. A crude Googling
comparison suggests that the former usage may be more common than the
latter, but since many of the hits are from passages referring to
more than one finger -- not to mention references to musical
intervals and fingering, as for guitar chords -- the tendency is far
from clear.
Scientists use the term "(manual) digit", which definitely includes
the thumb, "finger" being ambiguous enough in this respect to be
useless for specifying any particular one ("fifth finger" excepted)
without risk of being misunderstood.
--
Odysseus |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:13 am
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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M. J. Powell wrote:
| Quote: | In message <1129483250.809904.153350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
pjdd@rediffmail.com writes
I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
In the UK the NHS counts the thumb as a finger. If you go into A & E
with an injury to a little finger it will be recorded as an injury to
Finger No.5
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
|
When Americans count with their fingers they start with the index
representing 1, middle finger as 2, ring finger as 3, little finger as
4, and finally the thumb as 5.
When the French count with their fingers, they use the thumb for 1,
index for 2, and so forth.
What system do the British ordinarily use? It's clear from your post
that the NHS counts the little finger as 5, but is that true of the
British public?
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:27 am
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1129486925.223236.241480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[...]
| Quote: | On *The Simpsons,* another program by Groening, God is often, but
not
always, represented as having four fingers and a thumb, with the
result
that on the Web, in pages referring to the cartoon program, he might
be
said to have "three fingers," "four fingers," or "five fingers,"
depending upon the usage preferred by the author of the Web page and
which representation he is describing.
|
Bob Terwilliger, AKA "Sideshow Bob", had his knuckles tattooed in
prison: "LUV" and "HAT". Being Bob, he had a macron tattooed over the
"A". |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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On 16 Oct 2005 16:13:41 -0700, "Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
M. J. Powell wrote:
In message <1129483250.809904.153350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
pjdd@rediffmail.com writes
I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
In the UK the NHS counts the thumb as a finger. If you go into A & E
with an injury to a little finger it will be recorded as an injury to
Finger No.5
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
When Americans count with their fingers they start with the index
representing 1, middle finger as 2, ring finger as 3, little finger as
4, and finally the thumb as 5.
When the French count with their fingers, they use the thumb for 1,
index for 2, and so forth.
What system do the British ordinarily use? It's clear from your post
that the NHS counts the little finger as 5, but is that true of the
British public?
|
I can't speak for anyone else.
When counting with my fingers I'll use my right forefinger (index
finger) to touch in turn the fingers of my left hand, from left to
right, starting with the thumb as 1. If necessary I'll continue
counting on my right hand using my left forefinger, again from left to
right, with the little finger representing 1 and the thumb 5.
If I need to count with only one hand then I'd use the thumb to touch
the other fingers on the hand in turn, left to right. Counting one
handed with the left hand the forefinger is 1, with the right hand the
little finger would represent 1. I'd represent 5 by pointing the thumb
up.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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On 16 Oct 2005 16:13:41 -0700, "Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
M. J. Powell wrote:
In message <1129483250.809904.153350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
pjdd@rediffmail.com writes
I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
In the UK the NHS counts the thumb as a finger. If you go into A & E
with an injury to a little finger it will be recorded as an injury to
Finger No.5
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
When Americans count with their fingers they start with the index
representing 1, middle finger as 2, ring finger as 3, little finger as
4, and finally the thumb as 5.
When the French count with their fingers, they use the thumb for 1,
index for 2, and so forth.
What system do the British ordinarily use? It's clear from your post
that the NHS counts the little finger as 5, but is that true of the
British public?
|
I count starting with the thumb as 1. IIRC I've always done it that
way.
--
Robin
Hoddesdon, England |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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Robin Bignall wrote:
| Quote: | On 16 Oct 2005 16:13:41 -0700, "Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com
wrote:
What system do the British ordinarily use? It's clear from your post
that the NHS counts the little finger as 5, but is that true of the
British public?
I count starting with the thumb as 1. IIRC I've always done it that
way.
|
But if you hold a finger or fingers up to indicate a number to someone
else, the index finger is used for 'one', index and middle for 'two'...
and the thumb isn't used until 'five'.
I know this isn't universal, for example, some cultures use
index-and-thumb for 'two'. I'm not sure if this is what the original
poster meant.
Best regards
Rich |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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On 17 Oct 2005, Robin Bignall wrote
-snip-
| Quote: | When Americans count with their fingers they start with the index
representing 1, middle finger as 2, ring finger as 3, little
finger as 4, and finally the thumb as 5.
When the French count with their fingers, they use the thumb for
1, index for 2, and so forth.
What system do the British ordinarily use? It's clear from your
post that the NHS counts the little finger as 5, but is that true
of the British public?
I count starting with the thumb as 1. IIRC I've always done it
that way.
|
Count me as another "thumb as 1" person.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Arfur Million
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Is the thumb a finger ? |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | M. J. Powell wrote:
In message <1129483250.809904.153350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
pjdd@rediffmail.com writes
I'm a non-native user of English and I've
just been asked by some friends to settle
an argument. It seems one group says that
the thumb is a finger and the other group
insists that it isn't. It got to the point
where they're making bets and they called
me on the phone to settle it.
In the UK the NHS counts the thumb as a finger. If you go into A & E
with an injury to a little finger it will be recorded as an injury to
Finger No.5
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
When Americans count with their fingers they start with the index
representing 1, middle finger as 2, ring finger as 3, little finger as
4, and finally the thumb as 5.
When the French count with their fingers, they use the thumb for 1,
index for 2, and so forth.
What system do the British ordinarily use? It's clear from your post
that the NHS counts the little finger as 5, but is that true of the
British public?
|
In sheet music published for keyboard instrument players in Britain,
the numbering goes from 1 (for the thumb) to 5 (little finger). Some
other countries (eg Germany, IIRC) use a + symbol for the thumb and
number the fingers from 1 (index finger) to 4 (little finger).
Regards,
Arfur |
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