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Message |
Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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Jordan Abel wrote:
| Quote: | On 2005-10-25, Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I wouldn't argue against that as a rational position; but I don't
think it's the only conceivable rational position.
The merits of that approach don't, to me, outbalance the value of
letting the language develop as it decides to develop (rather than
shoe-horning additional elements into existing words).
The thing is, though, annoying prescriptivists are a part of that natural
development process.
|
That's right -- Modern orthographie sether'd its connexion with natur
ouer 400 years ago, when the rationale of spelling was that it should
not only come from the writer's inner monologue, but from existing
spelling, and morphology. It has been *almost* frozen since then. The
similarity between text and speech is mainly a reflection of the
similarity between modern speech and renaissance speech(strong enough
to suggest that modern spelling is actually a failed attempt at
describing modern phonology).
The diversity of speech that came with the British Empire kicked
phonics into the long grass.
~Iain
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | On 25 Oct 2005, Jordan Abel wrote
On 2005-10-25, Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I wouldn't argue against that as a rational position; but I
don't think it's the only conceivable rational position.
The merits of that approach don't, to me, outbalance the value of
letting the language develop as it decides to develop (rather
than shoe-horning additional elements into existing words).
The thing is, though, annoying prescriptivists are a part of that
natural development process.
Hmmm...the mileage of others and all that, but I'm not
entirely convinced that prescription is a natural process.
And at what point does something stop being an error?
When usage of the "incorrect" form overtakes the "correct" form.
For example: if one accepts the evidence of google that "ad nauseum"
is more common than "ad nauseam", there's a good case to be made that
the former has become a legitimate, naturalised spelling in English of
a formerly-foreign term. And if one accepts that case, it would be
wrong to continue to classify it as "error".
Irregardlessly,
Indeed: if it can be shown that the frequency of "irregardless" is
higher than that of "regardless", then it's ceased to be an error --
regardless of what I would prefer to be the case.
|
I think you are making Written English out to be more natural than it
is. Remember that writing is more designed than speech. Publishers will
continue to publish "ad nauseam", ensuring that it will remain the most
durable of spellings, even if it is a minority spelling.
There's natural and then there's standard. The usual hallmark of a
standard word is that it has a standard orthography. All words are
natural, unless they are made up on the spot.
Use of "whom" is not very natural but is very standard, except when
"standard" is used naturally but sub-standardly to mean "regular".
~Iain |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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On 25 Oct 2005, Jordan Abel wrote
| Quote: | On 2005-10-25, Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 25 Oct 2005, Jordan Abel wrote
On 2005-10-25, Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com
wrote:
I wouldn't argue against that as a rational position; but I
don't think it's the only conceivable rational position.
The merits of that approach don't, to me, outbalance the value
of letting the language develop as it decides to develop
(rather than shoe-horning additional elements into existing
words).
The thing is, though, annoying prescriptivists are a part of
that natural development process.
Hmmm...the mileage of others and all that, but I'm not entirely
convinced that prescription is a natural process.
I'd say that it's a natural counteraction against undirected
change - who's to say that those insisting on spelling "debt" with
a "b" are any worse than those insisting now that "nuclear" is to
be pronounced [i don't have the patience to mess around with
phonemic transcription - but you know what i mean - the right way.
not nucular.] If a new usage has enough steam behind it the
prescriptivists won't matter in a generation or two anyway.
And at what point does something stop being an error?
When usage of the "incorrect" form overtakes the "correct" form.
Irregardlessly,
Indeed: if it can be shown that the frequency of "irregardless"
is higher than that of "regardless", then it's ceased to be an
error -- regardless of what I would prefer to be the case.
So your position is that the two cannot coexist peacefully?
|
I don't think I implied that in the least. "Irregardless" and
"regardless" are doing just that -- that "irregardless" ceases to be an
error does not mean that "regardless" becomes one.
It would be the insistence -- in the face of that co-existence -- that
the first is an "error" that I would object to.
I think there's some confusion here over my use of "error" (which I've
consistently placed in quotation marks). Would you be happier if I
used "solecism" rather than "error"?
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
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Mike Page
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:44:45 +0100, "Laura F. Spira"
<laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:04:24 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
R H Draney wrote:
Robert Bannister filted:
[...]
Don't you think it's nice to be able to see a clear relationship
between "debt" and "debit"?
Not if it also leads you to see one between "isle" and
"island"....r
And not if it leads to unnecessary grief among those trying to learn
how to use the terms "debit" and "credit".
I suppose that tattooing DEBIT on the back of the left hand and
CREDIT on the back of the right hand would help.
Damn, I wish I'd thought of that.
|
But you learned accounting in the days when balance sheets were the
other way round, dearie. Besides, 'credit' has too many letters unless
you have six fingers, and it doesn't look hard if the letters are not
on the knuckles.
<Muses on LFS in biker gear with a leather jacket emblazoned
'Hell's Accountants: Moorgate Place Chapter'
and
'turned to the side furthest from the window'>
Would still have helped with the bookkeeping, I grant you.
Mike Page
mikeorang.page@portchimp.ac.uk
Kill the monkeys for email |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
| Quote: | Then there was the accountant who was an inadequate sex partner
whose girlfriend suggested that he have FIFO tattooed on his...
|
Perhaps I'm not visualizing well enough, but I would think that any
other strategy would prove problemmatic (or at least decidedly
awkward) for the critical region being accessed.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The General Theorem of Usenet
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Information: If you really want to
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |know the definitive answer, post
|the wrong information, and wait for
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |someone to come by and explain in
(650)857-7572 |excruciating detail precisely how
|wrong you are.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Eric The Read |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:14:38 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
<kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
Then there was the accountant who was an inadequate sex partner
whose girlfriend suggested that he have FIFO tattooed on his...
Perhaps I'm not visualizing well enough, but I would think that any
other strategy would prove problemmatic (or at least decidedly
awkward) for the critical region being accessed.
|
LIFO would imply a short duration, but at least more preparation. The
FIFO method is more of the slam-bam, thank you, ma'am style. In this
context.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Evolution of Language |
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Peter Moylan wrote:
| Quote: | Tom Robertson turpitued:
Don't "mistakes" account for the evolution of language? I often
correct friends who say "I did that good," telling them that they
should have said "I did that well."
I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say "I did that good".
|
That's common in the UK, Scotland at least.
~Iain |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:14:38 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
Then there was the accountant who was an inadequate sex partner
whose girlfriend suggested that he have FIFO tattooed on his...
Perhaps I'm not visualizing well enough, but I would think that any
other strategy would prove problemmatic (or at least decidedly
awkward) for the critical region being accessed.
LIFO would imply a short duration, but at least more preparation. The
FIFO method is more of the slam-bam, thank you, ma'am style. In this
context.
|
And LILO (which, of course, involves an airbed)...?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Mike Page
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:54:27 +0100, "Laura F. Spira"
<laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:14:38 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
Then there was the accountant who was an inadequate sex partner
whose girlfriend suggested that he have FIFO tattooed on his...
Perhaps I'm not visualizing well enough, but I would think that any
other strategy would prove problemmatic (or at least decidedly
awkward) for the critical region being accessed.
LIFO would imply a short duration, but at least more preparation. The
FIFO method is more of the slam-bam, thank you, ma'am style. In this
context.
And LILO (which, of course, involves an airbed)...?
|
Then there's FOFO, the well known method of teaching accounting in
some universities. Which seems apt in this context.
Mike Page
mikeorang.page@portchimp.ac.uk
Kill the monkeys for email |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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|
Mike Page wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:44:45 +0100, "Laura F. Spira"
laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:04:24 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
R H Draney wrote:
Robert Bannister filted:
[...]
Don't you think it's nice to be able to see a clear relationship
between "debt" and "debit"?
Not if it also leads you to see one between "isle" and
"island"....r
And not if it leads to unnecessary grief among those trying to learn
how to use the terms "debit" and "credit".
I suppose that tattooing DEBIT on the back of the left hand and
CREDIT on the back of the right hand would help.
Damn, I wish I'd thought of that.
But you learned accounting in the days when balance sheets were the
other way round, dearie.
|
Thank you for reminding me, sweetie.
Besides, 'credit' has too many letters unless
| Quote: | you have six fingers, and it doesn't look hard if the letters are not
on the knuckles.
Muses on LFS in biker gear with a leather jacket emblazoned
'Hell's Accountants: Moorgate Place Chapter'
and
'turned to the side furthest from the window'
|
A quite astonishing feat of the imagination from someone claiming to be
an accountant: may I see your watch, please?
| Quote: |
Would still have helped with the bookkeeping, I grant you.
|
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:46 am
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
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Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
| Quote: | On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:14:38 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
Then there was the accountant who was an inadequate sex partner
whose girlfriend suggested that he have FIFO tattooed on his...
Perhaps I'm not visualizing well enough, but I would think that any
other strategy would prove problemmatic (or at least decidedly
awkward) for the critical region being accessed.
LIFO would imply a short duration, but at least more preparation.
The FIFO method is more of the slam-bam, thank you, ma'am style. In
this context.
|
I guess I'm still having trouble viewing this as a resource contention
problem in any way that doesn't imply mutual exclusion (in which case,
of course, all of the policies are equivalent). I realize that it's
theoretically possible, but it never seemed as though it would be
particularly comfortable from the point of view of the resource being
allocated.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The General Theorem of Usenet
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Information: If you really want to
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |know the definitive answer, post
|the wrong information, and wait for
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |someone to come by and explain in
(650)857-7572 |excruciating detail precisely how
|wrong you are.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Eric The Read |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:18 am
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
|
|
On 25 Oct 2005, Jordan Abel wrote
| Quote: | On 2005-10-25, Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 25 Oct 2005, Jordan Abel wrote
On 2005-10-25, Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com
wrote:
Hmmm...the mileage of others and all that, but I'm not entirely
convinced that prescription is a natural process.
I'd say that it's a natural counteraction against undirected
change - who's to say that those insisting on spelling "debt"
with a "b" are any worse than those insisting now that "nuclear"
is to be pronounced [i don't have the patience to mess around
with phonemic transcription - but you know what i mean - the
right way. not nucular.] If a new usage has enough steam behind
it the prescriptivists won't matter in a generation or two
anyway.
And at what point does something stop being an error?
When usage of the "incorrect" form overtakes the "correct"
form.
Irregardlessly,
Indeed: if it can be shown that the frequency of
"irregardless" is higher than that of "regardless", then it's
ceased to be an error -- regardless of what I would prefer to
be the case.
So your position is that the two cannot coexist peacefully?
I don't think I implied that in the least. "Irregardless" and
"regardless" are doing just that -- that "irregardless" ceases to
be an error does not mean that "regardless" becomes one.
But you have said that irregardless cannot cease to be an 'error'
unless it becomes more popular than regardless. Why?
|
If it read that way, my apologies.
I didn't mean that it *cannot* cease to be an error without overcoming
the popularity of the other form, merely that if it *does* overcome --
or indeed, equal -- the other form, one can no longer classify it as an
error.
| Quote: | It would be the insistence -- in the face of that co-existence --
that the first is an "error" that I would object to.
I think there's some confusion here over my use of "error" (which
I've consistently placed in quotation marks). Would you be
happier if I used "solecism" rather than "error"?
You can use 'fancy word for error' all you want - all I'm saying
are two things, which may seem at first to be at odds with each
other - first, that pedantic prescriptivism is a legitimate
counterforce in the evolution of language,
|
I'd agree that it's a recognised counterforce; its legitimacy,
however, is debatable, and depends very much on which sense of
"legitimate" you're choosing to use.
| Quote: | and second, that 'irregardless' is a perfectly cromulent word.
|
I've no idea what you mean.
| Quote: | Incidentally, "solecism" is IMO a prescriptivist term.
|
That's why I kept placing "error" in quotation marks. (You did notice
those, I hope; they're weren't inserted for decoration.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:19 am
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
|
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Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | theoretically possible, but it never seemed as though it would be
particularly comfortable from the point of view of the resource
being
allocated.
|
Lucky Alphonse! Always, 'e win ze toss!
--
Mike. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:27 am
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
|
|
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:46:03 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
<kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:14:38 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
Then there was the accountant who was an inadequate sex partner
whose girlfriend suggested that he have FIFO tattooed on his...
Perhaps I'm not visualizing well enough, but I would think that any
other strategy would prove problemmatic (or at least decidedly
awkward) for the critical region being accessed.
LIFO would imply a short duration, but at least more preparation.
The FIFO method is more of the slam-bam, thank you, ma'am style. In
this context.
I guess I'm still having trouble viewing this as a resource contention
problem in any way that doesn't imply mutual exclusion (in which case,
of course, all of the policies are equivalent). I realize that it's
theoretically possible, but it never seemed as though it would be
particularly comfortable from the point of view of the resource being
allocated.
|
When dealing with expendable resources, it may be preferable to
eliminate comfort from contention. There is a short-term period where
the resources are expandable before they are expended, and one needs
to take advantage of the brief window.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: Peace proposal [was: Re: "email" vs "e-mail" revisited [ |
|
|
Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> writes:
| Quote: | On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:46:03 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
I guess I'm still having trouble viewing this as a resource contention
problem in any way that doesn't imply mutual exclusion (in which case,
of course, all of the policies are equivalent). I realize that it's
theoretically possible, but it never seemed as though it would be
particularly comfortable from the point of view of the resource being
allocated.
When dealing with expendable resources, it may be preferable to
eliminate comfort from contention. There is a short-term period where
the resources are expandable before they are expended, and one needs
to take advantage of the brief window.
|
I don't think I'd consider this an expendable resource. Most women
seem to get a lifetime's use out of it. It does, however, tend to be
allocated with an "at most one occupant at a time" policy.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Never ascribe to malice that which
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can adequately be explained by
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stupidity.
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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