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JPG
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:37 pm
Post subject: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with the name
before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
How are rivers named in other English-speaking countries? And does the
convention apply to other geographical features, although I'm pretty sure the
Great Lakes are named "Lake Michigan, Lake Superior" and so on but I feel sure I
remember others are labelled with "Lake" last, such as the Great Salt Lake.
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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JPG wrote:
| Quote: | Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with
the
name before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
How are rivers named in other English-speaking countries? And does
the convention apply to other geographical features, although I'm
pretty sure the Great Lakes are named "Lake Michigan, Lake
Superior"
and so on but I feel sure I remember others are labelled with
"Lake"
last, such as the Great Salt Lake.
|
We've had a discussion of this in the past year, but I can't quite
remember what we (including me!) said. Gg should reveal.
I think the few BrIs exceptions to the "river x" formula are where
the river or stream is named after a place: Helford River, etc. Few
BrIs lakes are actually called "Lake" at all in formal style. I
wonder if the "Lake Victoria" etc pattern may owe something to French
"Lac du Leman" etc, but I really don't know. "The Great Salt Lake" is
different because it follows an ordinary adj+noun pattern.
The same thing happens a bit with mountains, too. "Pencarreg
Mountain", but "Mount Fuji".
(Diverging a little from the question, around then I also discovered
how rare was "strait" in the formal names of that water feature: they
nearly all seem to be Sounds.)
--
Mike. |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:29:22 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | JPG wrote:
Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with
the
name before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
How are rivers named in other English-speaking countries? And does
the convention apply to other geographical features, although I'm
pretty sure the Great Lakes are named "Lake Michigan, Lake
Superior"
and so on but I feel sure I remember others are labelled with
"Lake"
last, such as the Great Salt Lake.
We've had a discussion of this in the past year, but I can't quite
remember what we (including me!) said. Gg should reveal.
I think the few BrIs exceptions to the "river x" formula are where
the river or stream is named after a place: Helford River, etc. Few
BrIs lakes are actually called "Lake" at all in formal style. I
wonder if the "Lake Victoria" etc pattern may owe something to French
"Lac du Leman" etc, but I really don't know. "The Great Salt Lake" is
different because it follows an ordinary adj+noun pattern.
The same thing happens a bit with mountains, too. "Pencarreg
Mountain", but "Mount Fuji".
(Diverging a little from the question, around then I also discovered
how rare was "strait" in the formal names of that water feature: they
nearly all seem to be Sounds.)
|
Here is a repeat of message I posted three years ago:
| Quote: | On Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:03:19 +0100, "Beagle"
peter.jen@xxx-ntlworld.com> wrote:
I have long wondered why in Britain the word River invariably precedes the
name (River Severn, River Ouse, River Tees, River Thames etc) while in the
US it invariably follows the name (Mississippi River, Colorado River,
Potomac River, Rappahannock River etc). Any thoughts on this interesting
difference.
I definitely recall a thread on this subject - somewhere.
It might have been in uk.culture.language.english.
Lakes and estuaries came into the discussion also.
I do not recall any firm conclusion being reached.
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I've found the thread in uk.culture.language.english on Google
Groups. There are 46 messages in the thread, one is:
<quote>
From: Lars Eighner (eighner@io.com)
Subject: Re: Rivers
Newsgroups: uk.culture.language.english
Date: 2001-06-17 11:02:48 PST
In our last episode,
<Xt1X6.9264$7c4.261633@news11-gui.server.ntli.net>,
the lovely and talented Mike Stevens
broadcast on uk.culture.language.english:
MS> Molly <molly@mockfords-nospam.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
MS> news:ABsm1UAQmHL7Ew9Y@clara.net...
MS> I've already mentioned the London River, and then there's
MS> the Helford River in Cornwall & Fray's River in the Uxbridge
MS> area. That's just off the top of my head. Then there's the
MS> Three Mills Wall River, Waterworks River, the City Mill
MS> River, the Pudding Mill River and the Bow Back River, all
MS> backwaters of the Lee.
MS> Not to mention things like the New River and the Twenty Foot
MS> River, the Old Bedford River and the New Bedford River,
which
MS> aren't actually rivers but canals.
This suggests to me a theory:
When it is uniquely named or very well known, it is the River X
or simply the X.
When the river has the name of some other feature, it is the X
River. It cannot be the Three Mills Wall because, of course,
that would be the name of a wall. Bedford would be first the
name of a ford and then the settlement around the ford, so
whether new or old the 'River' is necessary.
MS> I suspect that both uses were once widespread, but one
MS> retained greater popularity in the UK while the other became
MS> dominant in the USA. Speaking of which, how about the Red
MS> River for an US usage the other way round?
I cannot think of any US rivers named in English that are not
either the X River or the X, none are the River X (except
poetically).
Unfortunately we have plenty of folks who will say such things
as Rio Grande River (and Sierra Madre Mountains, etc.). The
Mississippi and the Colorado are not confused with the states of
the same names, because no one says THE Mississippi who means
the state (unless as an adjective: the Mississippi legislature).
</quote>
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u)
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:41 am
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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| Quote: | JPG wrote:
Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with
the name before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
|
This seems to invoke a rule that may not really exist. American
and British atlases alike show an Amazon River in Brazil and a
River Nile in Egypt.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:30 am
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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Don Phillipson wrote:
| Quote: | JPG wrote:
Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with
the name before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
This seems to invoke a rule that may not really exist. American
and British atlases alike show an Amazon River in Brazil and a
River Nile in Egypt.
|
My atlases are in boxes, but that's surprising. I'm not saying there
is a clear rule here, or that my memory is perfect, but I don't
remember any modern BrEtc source saying or writing "Amazon
River"...actually, no, here's the little _Nelson Universal
Hand-Atlas_ from before WW1. It has "R.Amazon". N. American rivers
are named according to local practice. As one might have expected,
its practice is variable for Australian rivers.
--
Mike. |
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Weatherlawyer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Avon calling. |
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JPG wrote:
| Quote: | Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with the name
before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
How are rivers named in other English-speaking countries? And does the
convention apply to other geographical features, although I'm pretty sure the
Great Lakes are named "Lake Michigan, Lake Superior" and so on but I feel sure I
remember others are labelled with "Lake" last, such as the Great Salt Lake.
|
If there is a precedent it is that the river is not named the same as
the land it is flowing through.
The only place this occurs in Britain is Avon where the Avon flows
through it. However there are a couple of Avons -and if you lived in
Wales they'd all be afons. |
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JPG
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Avon calling. |
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On 10 Oct 2005 18:26:33 -0700, "Weatherlawyer" <Weatherlawyer@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
JPG wrote:
Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with the name
before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
How are rivers named in other English-speaking countries? And does the
convention apply to other geographical features, although I'm pretty sure the
Great Lakes are named "Lake Michigan, Lake Superior" and so on but I feel sure I
remember others are labelled with "Lake" last, such as the Great Salt Lake.
If there is a precedent it is that the river is not named the same as
the land it is flowing through.
The only place this occurs in Britain is Avon where the Avon flows
through it. However there are a couple of Avons -and if you lived in
Wales they'd all be afons.
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"afon" or "avon" is the Celtic word for "river" |
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JPG
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:29:22 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | JPG wrote:
Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with
the
name before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
How are rivers named in other English-speaking countries? And does
the convention apply to other geographical features, although I'm
pretty sure the Great Lakes are named "Lake Michigan, Lake
Superior"
and so on but I feel sure I remember others are labelled with
"Lake"
last, such as the Great Salt Lake.
We've had a discussion of this in the past year, but I can't quite
remember what we (including me!) said. Gg should reveal.
I think the few BrIs exceptions to the "river x" formula are where
the river or stream is named after a place: Helford River, etc. Few
BrIs lakes are actually called "Lake" at all in formal style.
|
Quite a few lakes and large reservoirs in England and Wales are called *****
water, as in Grafham Water, Draycote Water, Coniston Water.
Natural lakes vary in naming convention - Lake Winderemere, Bala Lake.
JPG
| Quote: | I
wonder if the "Lake Victoria" etc pattern may owe something to French
"Lac du Leman" etc, but I really don't know. "The Great Salt Lake" is
different because it follows an ordinary adj+noun pattern.
The same thing happens a bit with mountains, too. "Pencarreg
Mountain", but "Mount Fuji".
(Diverging a little from the question, around then I also discovered
how rare was "strait" in the formal names of that water feature: they
nearly all seem to be Sounds.) |
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William
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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JPG wrote:
| Quote: | Quite a few lakes and large reservoirs in England and Wales are called *****
water, as in Grafham Water, Draycote Water, Coniston Water.
Natural lakes vary in naming convention - Lake Winderemere, Bala Lake.
|
Oy!
That's "Windermere" and "Llyn Tegid". No "Lake" in either of those.
--
WH |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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William spake thusly:
| Quote: |
JPG wrote:
Quite a few lakes and large reservoirs in England and Wales are called *****
water, as in Grafham Water, Draycote Water, Coniston Water.
Natural lakes vary in naming convention - Lake Winderemere, Bala Lake.
Oy!
That's "Windermere" and "Llyn Tegid". No "Lake" in either of those.
|
I, being English rather than Welsh, usually call Llyn Tegid "Lake
Bala". I don't think I've ever heard "Bala Lake".
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Avon calling. |
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Weatherlawyer wrote:
| Quote: | JPG wrote:
Can anyone explain the origin of the Americans naming rivers with
the name before "River", and the UK with "River" before the name.
How are rivers named in other English-speaking countries? And does
the convention apply to other geographical features, although I'm
pretty sure the Great Lakes are named "Lake Michigan, Lake Superior"
and so on but I feel sure I remember others are labelled with "Lake"
last, such as the Great Salt Lake.
If there is a precedent it is that the river is not named the same as
the land it is flowing through.
|
Unlike the Amazon, Mississippi, Congo (Zaire), Missouri, Yukon, Seine
.... zzz ... falls asleep counting rivers
| Quote: |
The only place this occurs in Britain is Avon where the Avon flows
through it. However there are a couple of Avons -and if you lived in
Wales they'd all be afons.
|
Not the Medway then? The Clwyd? The Conwy? Would we be counting the
Humber on Humberside, the Teviot in Teviotdale, the Clyde on Clydeside,
the Mersey on ... zzz?
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | William spake thusly:
JPG wrote:
Quite a few lakes and large reservoirs in England and Wales are
called ***** water, as in Grafham Water, Draycote Water, Coniston
Water.
Natural lakes vary in naming convention - Lake Winderemere, Bala
Lake.
Oy!
That's "Windermere" and "Llyn Tegid". No "Lake" in either of
those.
I, being English rather than Welsh, usually call Llyn Tegid "Lake
Bala". I don't think I've ever heard "Bala Lake".
|
OS Landranger Sheet 125: "Llyn Tegid or Bala Lake".
People do say "Lake Windermere", but that's informal to the point of
wrongth, and in my earlier posting about few Br lakes being called
"lake" I put in a limiting remark about formal use.
--
Mike. |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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Mike Lyle spake thusly:
| Quote: | the Omrud wrote:
I, being English rather than Welsh, usually call Llyn Tegid "Lake
Bala". I don't think I've ever heard "Bala Lake".
OS Landranger Sheet 125: "Llyn Tegid or Bala Lake".
People do say "Lake Windermere", but that's informal to the point of
wrongth, and in my earlier posting about few Br lakes being called
"lake" I put in a limiting remark about formal use.
|
So I see. I grew up close enough to Bala to make outings to both the
town and the lake fairly frequent. I suspect that I've retained a
local version of the name.
--
David
=====
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William
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | People do say "Lake Windermere", but that's informal to the point of
wrongth, and in my earlier posting about few Br lakes being called
"lake" I put in a limiting remark about formal use.
|
As I recall, there's only one "Lake" in the Lake District; that's
Bassenthwaite Lake.
--
WH |
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Joe Higman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Mississippi (River) Thames ? |
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"William" <william@lowerknowle.com> wrote in message
news:1129044648.518351.188600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
People do say "Lake Windermere", but that's informal to the point of
wrongth, and in my earlier posting about few Br lakes being called
"lake" I put in a limiting remark about formal use.
As I recall, there's only one "Lake" in the Lake District; that's
Bassenthwaite Lake.
--
WH
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The suffix "mere" means lake. Lake Windermere translates as Lake Winderlake,
in the same way that the many River Avons contain English and Celtic words
for outsize streams. |
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