| Author |
Message |
Skitt
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:35 am
Post subject: About that "too" |
|
|
Bob C. had written in another thread:
I, too, once worked in a place where I punched a clock
to the nearest 0.1 hour.
That caused me to do a bit of research, as I had previously been chastised
by some for improper non-use of commas around or near a "too".
This is what I found at
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.Commas.html:
=====================
Q. Please help clarify a debate over what I see as a groundless but
persistent carryover from high-school English classes: the comma-before-too
"rule." The rule goes something like this: When "too" is used in the sense
of "also," use a comma before and after "too" in the middle of a sentence
and a comma before "too" at the end of a sentence. I am editing a work of
fiction in which the author has rigidly applied the rule. I have just as
rigidly deleted the commas. My managing editor believes that a comma is
needed when "too" refers to an item in a list and has the sense of "in
addition" (e.g., "I like apples and bananas, too."), but she would omit the
comma when "too" refers to the subject of the sentence (e.g., "Oh, you like
apples and bananas? I like apples and bananas too."). My managing editor's
rule helps make a useful distinction, but I am still wondering whether the
comma is ever grammatically justified.
A. A comma can do some work in making the meaning of a sentence clear, but
to claim two different meanings for I like apples and bananas too with and
without a comma before too puts too much pressure on the comma. Out of
context, neither version would be perfectly clear. To make the different
meanings more apparent, short of additional context, you'd have to be more
explicit:
I too like apples and bananas.
I like not only apples but bananas too.
Use commas with too only when you want to emphasize an abrupt change of
thought:
He didn't know at first what hit him, but then, too, he hadn't ever walked
in a field strewn with garden rakes.
In most other cases, commas with this short adverb are unnecessary (an
exception being sentences that begin with too-in the sense of also-a
construction some writers would avoid as being too awkward).
====================
It seems, I am not without support from fairly reputable sources (The
Chicago Manual of Style) when I omit the unnecessary commas next to or
around the occasional "too".
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Maria Conlon
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:31 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
|
|
Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | Bob C. had written in another thread:
I, too, once worked in a place where I punched a clock
to the nearest 0.1 hour.
That caused me to do a bit of research, as I had previously been
chastised by some for improper non-use of commas around or near a
"too".
This is what I found at
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.Commas.html:
=====================
Q. Please help clarify a debate over what I see as a groundless but
persistent carryover from high-school English classes: the
comma-before-too "rule." The rule goes something like this: When
"too" is used in the sense of "also," use a comma before and after
"too" in the middle of a sentence and a comma before "too" at the end
of a sentence. I am editing a work of fiction in which the author has
rigidly applied the rule. I have just as rigidly deleted the commas.
My managing editor believes that a comma is needed when "too" refers
to an item in a list and has the sense of "in addition" (e.g., "I
like apples and bananas, too."), but she would omit the comma when
"too" refers to the subject of the sentence (e.g., "Oh, you like
apples and bananas? I like apples and bananas too."). My managing
editor's rule helps make a useful distinction, but I am still
wondering whether the comma is ever grammatically justified.
A. A comma can do some work in making the meaning of a sentence
clear, but to claim two different meanings for I like apples and
bananas too with and without a comma before too puts too much
pressure on the comma. Out of context, neither version would be
perfectly clear. To make the different meanings more apparent, short
of additional context, you'd have to be more explicit:
I too like apples and bananas.
I like not only apples but bananas too.
Use commas with too only when you want to emphasize an abrupt change
of thought:
He didn't know at first what hit him, but then, too, he hadn't ever
walked in a field strewn with garden rakes.
In most other cases, commas with this short adverb are unnecessary (an
exception being sentences that begin with too-in the sense of also-a
construction some writers would avoid as being too awkward).
====================
It seems, I am not without support from fairly reputable sources (The
Chicago Manual of Style) when I omit the unnecessary commas next to or
around the occasional "too".
|
Sometimes commas can be omitted, but in "I, too, once worked in a place
where I punched a clock to the nearest 0.1 hour," I think I'd leave them
in. It seems an awkward sentence without them.
Mileage does vary, as we all know.
Maria Conlon |
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Skitt
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:13 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
|
|
Maria Conlon wrote:
| Quote: | Skitt wrote:
Bob C. had written in another thread:
I, too, once worked in a place where I punched a clock
to the nearest 0.1 hour.
That caused me to do a bit of research, as I had previously been
chastised by some for improper non-use of commas around or near a
"too".
This is what I found at
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.Commas.html:
=====================
Q. Please help clarify a debate over what I see as a groundless but
persistent carryover from high-school English classes: the
comma-before-too "rule." The rule goes something like this: When
"too" is used in the sense of "also," use a comma before and after
"too" in the middle of a sentence and a comma before "too" at the end
of a sentence. I am editing a work of fiction in which the author has
rigidly applied the rule. I have just as rigidly deleted the commas.
My managing editor believes that a comma is needed when "too" refers
to an item in a list and has the sense of "in addition" (e.g., "I
like apples and bananas, too."), but she would omit the comma when
"too" refers to the subject of the sentence (e.g., "Oh, you like
apples and bananas? I like apples and bananas too."). My managing
editor's rule helps make a useful distinction, but I am still
wondering whether the comma is ever grammatically justified.
A. A comma can do some work in making the meaning of a sentence
clear, but to claim two different meanings for I like apples and
bananas too with and without a comma before too puts too much
pressure on the comma. Out of context, neither version would be
perfectly clear. To make the different meanings more apparent, short
of additional context, you'd have to be more explicit:
I too like apples and bananas.
I like not only apples but bananas too.
Use commas with too only when you want to emphasize an abrupt change
of thought:
He didn't know at first what hit him, but then, too, he hadn't ever
walked in a field strewn with garden rakes.
In most other cases, commas with this short adverb are unnecessary
(an exception being sentences that begin with too-in the sense of
also-a construction some writers would avoid as being too awkward).
====================
It seems, I am not without support from fairly reputable sources (The
Chicago Manual of Style) when I omit the unnecessary commas next to
or around the occasional "too".
Sometimes commas can be omitted, but in "I, too, once worked in a
place where I punched a clock to the nearest 0.1 hour," I think I'd
leave them in. It seems an awkward sentence without them.
|
Naah, I don't see any reason for the commas in that sentence, just as TCMoS
doesn't (see their very similar example).
| Quote: | Mileage does vary, as we all know.
|
True, and I like to go against Thistlebottomish ideas.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:26 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
|
|
Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | Maria Conlon wrote:
Skitt wrote:
Bob C. had written in another thread:
I, too, once worked in a place where I punched a clock
to the nearest 0.1 hour.
That caused me to do a bit of research, as I had previously been
chastised by some for improper non-use of commas around or near a
"too".
This is what I found at
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.Commas.html:
=====================
Q. Please help clarify a debate over what I see as a groundless
but
persistent carryover from high-school English classes: the
comma-before-too "rule." The rule goes something like this: When
"too" is used in the sense of "also," use a comma before and
after
"too" in the middle of a sentence and a comma before "too" at the
end of a sentence. I am editing a work of fiction in which the
author has rigidly applied the rule. I have just as rigidly
deleted
the commas. My managing editor believes that a comma is needed
when
"too" refers to an item in a list and has the sense of "in
addition" (e.g., "I like apples and bananas, too."), but she
would
omit the comma when "too" refers to the subject of the sentence
(e.g., "Oh, you like apples and bananas? I like apples and
bananas
too."). My managing editor's rule helps make a useful
distinction,
but I am still wondering whether the comma is ever grammatically
justified.
A. A comma can do some work in making the meaning of a sentence
clear, but to claim two different meanings for I like apples and
bananas too with and without a comma before too puts too much
pressure on the comma. Out of context, neither version would be
perfectly clear. To make the different meanings more apparent,
short
of additional context, you'd have to be more explicit:
I too like apples and bananas.
I like not only apples but bananas too.
Use commas with too only when you want to emphasize an abrupt
change
of thought:
He didn't know at first what hit him, but then, too, he hadn't
ever
walked in a field strewn with garden rakes.
In most other cases, commas with this short adverb are
unnecessary
(an exception being sentences that begin with too-in the sense of
also-a construction some writers would avoid as being too
awkward).
====================
It seems, I am not without support from fairly reputable sources
(The Chicago Manual of Style) when I omit the unnecessary commas
next to or around the occasional "too".
Sometimes commas can be omitted, but in "I, too, once worked in a
place where I punched a clock to the nearest 0.1 hour," I think
I'd
leave them in. It seems an awkward sentence without them.
Naah, I don't see any reason for the commas in that sentence, just
as
TCMoS doesn't (see their very similar example).
Mileage does vary, as we all know.
True, and I like to go against Thistlebottomish ideas.
|
I think it's best with this kind of thing to have all intelligible
variations in one's toolkit. When writing dialogue you can hint at
character or mood even with something as simple as use of commas. "I
too xxx" sounds different from "I, too, xxx."
There is, of course, a logical case for always using commas with this
"too": that way, it can never be mistaken for the one in "I too often
jump to conclusions". In that respect it's like the "however"
problem. So I think I'd stick with the comma method except in
dialogue and related forms; but I don't think one should adhere
mechanically to any rule.
--
Mike. |
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Skitt
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
|
|
Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Skitt wrote:
Maria Conlon wrote:
Skitt wrote:
Bob C. had written in another thread:
I, too, once worked in a place where I punched a clock
to the nearest 0.1 hour.
That caused me to do a bit of research, as I had previously been
chastised by some for improper non-use of commas around or near a
"too".
This is what I found at
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.Commas.html:
=====================
Q. Please help clarify a debate over what I see as a groundless but
persistent carryover from high-school English classes: the
comma-before-too "rule." The rule goes something like this: When
"too" is used in the sense of "also," use a comma before and after
"too" in the middle of a sentence and a comma before "too" at the
end of a sentence. I am editing a work of fiction in which the
author has rigidly applied the rule. I have just as rigidly deleted
the commas. My managing editor believes that a comma is needed when
"too" refers to an item in a list and has the sense of "in
addition" (e.g., "I like apples and bananas, too."), but she would
omit the comma when "too" refers to the subject of the sentence
(e.g., "Oh, you like apples and bananas? I like apples and bananas
too."). My managing editor's rule helps make a useful distinction,
but I am still wondering whether the comma is ever grammatically
justified.
A. A comma can do some work in making the meaning of a sentence
clear, but to claim two different meanings for I like apples and
bananas too with and without a comma before too puts too much
pressure on the comma. Out of context, neither version would be
perfectly clear. To make the different meanings more apparent,
short of additional context, you'd have to be more explicit:
I too like apples and bananas.
I like not only apples but bananas too.
Use commas with too only when you want to emphasize an abrupt
change of thought:
He didn't know at first what hit him, but then, too, he hadn't ever
walked in a field strewn with garden rakes.
In most other cases, commas with this short adverb are unnecessary
(an exception being sentences that begin with too-in the sense of
also-a construction some writers would avoid as being too awkward).
====================
It seems, I am not without support from fairly reputable sources
(The Chicago Manual of Style) when I omit the unnecessary commas
next to or around the occasional "too".
Sometimes commas can be omitted, but in "I, too, once worked in a
place where I punched a clock to the nearest 0.1 hour," I think I'd
leave them in. It seems an awkward sentence without them.
Naah, I don't see any reason for the commas in that sentence, just as
TCMoS doesn't (see their very similar example).
Mileage does vary, as we all know.
True, and I like to go against Thistlebottomish ideas.
I think it's best with this kind of thing to have all intelligible
variations in one's toolkit. When writing dialogue you can hint at
character or mood even with something as simple as use of commas. "I
too xxx" sounds different from "I, too, xxx."
There is, of course, a logical case for always using commas with this
"too": that way, it can never be mistaken for the one in "I too often
jump to conclusions". In that respect it's like the "however"
problem. So I think I'd stick with the comma method except in
dialogue and related forms; but I don't think one should adhere
mechanically to any rule.
|
I too would use commas in a sentence such as you show, except that I
wouldn't write a sentence like that too often -- it's a bit stilted.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
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|
On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:09:36 -0700, "Skitt"
<skitt99@comcast.net> said:
[...]
| Quote: | There is, of course, a logical case for always using commas with this
"too": that way, it can never be mistaken for the one in "I too often
jump to conclusions". In that respect it's like the "however"
problem. So I think I'd stick with the comma method except in
dialogue and related forms; but I don't think one should adhere
mechanically to any rule.
I too would use commas in a sentence such as you show, except that I
wouldn't write a sentence like that too often -- it's a bit stilted.
|
In "I, too, worked at a place like that", the "too" is
parenthetical, as shown by dropping the "too" to get "I
worked at a place like that", which expresses essentially
the same thought.
So in my opinion the commas belong, and in my writing they
will continue to appear when they bracket a parenthesis, but
my main interest in the thread has shifted to a striking
comparison that occurred to me while I was reading Mike
Lyle's comments:
I, too, often drink whiskey.
I too often drink whiskey.
Commas can make a world of difference in meaning.
If I reed something like "I too worked at a place like
that", the "too" will prepare me for something to be
modified by the adverb "too". After I see that the word
following "too" can't be properly modified by the adverb
"too", I have to spend a few milliseconds to realize that
"too" is not an adverb in this case. Proper punctuation of
the parenthetical remark avoids that false scent. |
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Ted Schuerzinger
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:07 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
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|
Somebody claiming to be "Maria Conlon" <maria.c-b@sbcglobal.net> wrote
in news:A8V1f.765$HA.477@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net:
| Quote: | Sometimes commas can be omitted, but in "I, too, once worked in a
place where I punched a clock to the nearest 0.1 hour," I think I'd
leave them in. It seems an awkward sentence without them.
|
And here I had a bigger problem with '0.1 hour', which I'd write as 'tenth
of an hour'.
--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
Oh Marge, anyone can miss Canada, all tucked away down there....
--Homer Simpson |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:22 pm
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
|
|
Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:09:36 -0700, "Skitt"
skitt99@comcast.net> said:
[...]
There is, of course, a logical case for always using commas with
this "too": that way, it can never be mistaken for the one in "I
too often jump to conclusions". In that respect it's like the
"however" problem. So I think I'd stick with the comma method
except in dialogue and related forms; but I don't think one
should
adhere mechanically to any rule.
I too would use commas in a sentence such as you show, except that
I
wouldn't write a sentence like that too often -- it's a bit
stilted.
In "I, too, worked at a place like that", the "too" is
parenthetical, as shown by dropping the "too" to get "I
worked at a place like that", which expresses essentially
the same thought.
So in my opinion the commas belong, and in my writing they
will continue to appear when they bracket a parenthesis, but
my main interest in the thread has shifted to a striking
comparison that occurred to me while I was reading Mike
Lyle's comments:
I, too, often drink whiskey.
I too often drink whiskey.
Commas can make a world of difference in meaning.
If I reed something like "I too worked at a place like
that", the "too" will prepare me for something to be
modified by the adverb "too". After I see that the word
following "too" can't be properly modified by the adverb
"too", I have to spend a few milliseconds to realize that
"too" is not an adverb in this case. Proper punctuation of
the parenthetical remark avoids that false scent.
|
As, indeed, with the string "I too often jump to conclusions".
--
Mike. |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:35 pm
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
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|
Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham wrote:
"Skitt" said:
[...]
There is, of course, a logical case for always using commas with
this "too": that way, it can never be mistaken for the one in "I
too often jump to conclusions". In that respect it's like the
"however" problem. So I think I'd stick with the comma method
except in dialogue and related forms; but I don't think one should
adhere mechanically to any rule.
I too would use commas in a sentence such as you show, except that I
wouldn't write a sentence like that too often -- it's a bit stilted.
In "I, too, worked at a place like that", the "too" is
parenthetical, as shown by dropping the "too" to get "I
worked at a place like that", which expresses essentially
the same thought.
So in my opinion the commas belong, and in my writing they
will continue to appear when they bracket a parenthesis, but
my main interest in the thread has shifted to a striking
comparison that occurred to me while I was reading Mike
Lyle's comments:
I, too, often drink whiskey.
I too often drink whiskey.
Commas can make a world of difference in meaning.
If I reed something like "I too worked at a place like
that", the "too" will prepare me for something to be
modified by the adverb "too". After I see that the word
following "too" can't be properly modified by the adverb
"too", I have to spend a few milliseconds to realize that
"too" is not an adverb in this case. Proper punctuation of
the parenthetical remark avoids that false scent.
As, indeed, with the string "I too often jump to conclusions".
|
I agree, but as I mentioned before, there's a far better way to write that
sentence. There's also nothing wrong with using commas to avoid ambiguity.
That was mentioned in the CMoS piece I quoted earlier. It's just that in
many cases (not all) there's no reason to put commas next to or around a
"too".
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:13 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
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|
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 01:37:09 -0000, Ted Schuerzinger <fedya@bestweb.spam> wrote:
| Quote: | Somebody claiming to be "Maria Conlon" <maria.c-b@sbcglobal.net> wrote
in news:A8V1f.765$HA.477@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net:
Sometimes commas can be omitted, but in "I, too, once worked in a
place where I punched a clock to the nearest 0.1 hour," I think I'd
leave them in. It seems an awkward sentence without them.
And here I had a bigger problem with '0.1 hour', which I'd write as 'tenth
of an hour'.
|
What sort of clock would select 6 minutes over five for punching purposes? I
was hauled over the coals in 1964 for "persistent lateness" - I'd accumulated 15
minutes of "lates" in 3 months.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
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|
Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
If I reed something like "I too worked at a place like
that", the "too" will prepare me for something to be
modified by the adverb "too". After I see that the word
following "too" can't be properly modified by the adverb
"too", I have to spend a few milliseconds to realize that
"too" is not an adverb in this case. Proper punctuation of
the parenthetical remark avoids that false scent.
As, indeed, with the string "I too often jump to conclusions".
I agree, but as I mentioned before, there's a far better way to
write
that sentence.[...]
|
A matter of taste in this case, of course. But if there's a long bit
qualifying "conclusions", it would be very clumsy to put the
parenthetic "too" at the end. "Jones often jumped to conclusions
which, in the light of mature consideration, he found to be quite
unjustified, too."
--
Mike. |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:25 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
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|
Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Skitt wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
If I reed something like "I too worked at a place like
that", the "too" will prepare me for something to be
modified by the adverb "too". After I see that the word
following "too" can't be properly modified by the adverb
"too", I have to spend a few milliseconds to realize that
"too" is not an adverb in this case. Proper punctuation of
the parenthetical remark avoids that false scent.
As, indeed, with the string "I too often jump to conclusions".
I agree, but as I mentioned before, there's a far better way to write
that sentence.[...]
A matter of taste in this case, of course. But if there's a long bit
qualifying "conclusions", it would be very clumsy to put the
parenthetic "too" at the end. "Jones often jumped to conclusions
which, in the light of mature consideration, he found to be quite
unjustified, too."
|
Ever consider dropping the "too" and using an "also" between "he" and
"found" in that case? Easy fix. There's more than one way to skin a cat,
you know.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:26 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
|
|
Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
A matter of taste in this case, of course. But if there's a long
bit
qualifying "conclusions", it would be very clumsy to put the
parenthetic "too" at the end. "Jones often jumped to conclusions
which, in the light of mature consideration, he found to be quite
unjustified, too."
Ever consider dropping the "too" and using an "also" between "he"
and
"found" in that case? Easy fix. There's more than one way to skin
a
cat, you know.
|
Sure; but "also" and "too" aren't precisely the same, and we were
narrowly considering "too". Expanding that a little, Br-typeE doesn't
typically place "also" at the end of a sentence, or, in formal use,
at the beginning; and, for reasons which aren't at all clear to me, I
have a lurking sense that we don't tend to use "also" between
parenthetic commas, so it's often avoided where confusion might
arise. (Thinking on my feet here: I may be deceiving myself.)
I'm reminded of an incident in a Katzenjammer Kids comic in which an
ostrich is hammering on the prostrate Captain's head, and the
Inspector says, with a smirk, "Sometimes a ostrich can be a
voodpecker, also!" To my youthful Australian eye, the placing of
"also" was quite as exotic as the other EFL features.
--
Mike. |
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Skitt
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:46 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
|
|
Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Skitt wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
A matter of taste in this case, of course. But if there's a long bit
qualifying "conclusions", it would be very clumsy to put the
parenthetic "too" at the end. "Jones often jumped to conclusions
which, in the light of mature consideration, he found to be quite
unjustified, too."
Ever consider dropping the "too" and using an "also" between "he" and
"found" in that case? Easy fix. There's more than one way to skin a
cat, you know.
Sure; but "also" and "too" aren't precisely the same, and we were
narrowly considering "too". Expanding that a little, Br-typeE doesn't
typically place "also" at the end of a sentence, or, in formal use,
at the beginning; and, for reasons which aren't at all clear to me, I
have a lurking sense that we don't tend to use "also" between
parenthetic commas, so it's often avoided where confusion might
arise. (Thinking on my feet here: I may be deceiving myself.)
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They are wise to do all that you say they do.
| Quote: | I'm reminded of an incident in a Katzenjammer Kids comic in which an
ostrich is hammering on the prostrate Captain's head, and the
Inspector says, with a smirk, "Sometimes a ostrich can be a
voodpecker, also!" To my youthful Australian eye, the placing of
"also" was quite as exotic as the other EFL features.
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Quite.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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J. W. Love
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:05 am
Post subject: Re: About that "too" |
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Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | It seems, I am not without support from fairly reputable sources (The
Chicago Manual of Style) when I omit the unnecessary commas next to or
around the occasional "too".
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You're not without support from me too. (In such matters, one refrains
from assessing one's own reputability.) Think of punctuation marks as
transcriptional devices, not unlike rests & slurs. Sometimes your
verbal music wants one of them, and sometimes it doesn't. |
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